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Post by Brother Ben on Jan 20, 2009 8:48:21 GMT -5
I have been working on some end times charts that would (roughly) relay a Pre-Wrath view of the Rapture. The timing is not to be interpreted too specifically except where the Bible gives specifics, i.e., Zec 11:8 Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me. refering to the brevity of the actual pouring out of God's wrath on the planet earth. Chart 1 NOTE: It is VERY possible that the tribulation will only last 3-1/2 years because that is the only time frame listed in the Revelation. Notice: Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months. 3-1/2 years Rev 11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 3-1/2 years Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.3-1/2 years (symbolic perhaps???) Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.A symbolic picture of prewrath rapture??? Perhaps, look what's next Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. Chart 12 Be careful to read it, look up the references and let's have some discussion.
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Post by Brother Ben on Jan 22, 2009 13:53:02 GMT -5
I added a chart above and I made some modifications to the above post.
Bro. Ben
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Post by kingdomblievr on Feb 7, 2009 0:18:41 GMT -5
I think there are two raptures. My reasoning is this. There is a coming that no one knows the day or the hour, and there is a seventh trumpet coming that happens 1260 days into the "Great Tribulation". It is this seventh trumpet rapture that most of the Christians are going to go in, and it is going to be the second of the two. The rapture that no one will be expecting will be for those who are praying and watching, and it is described in the second half of Rev. 7, which is around the midpoint of the 70th week of Daniel, if you can believe that the man-child in Rev. 12 is a reference to this watchful portion of believers.
Another reason is this. In Rev. 7 and Rev. 12, the ones raptured are raptured to God's throne. The ones at the last trumpet are caught up to meet Christ "in the air".
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Post by Brother Ben on Feb 12, 2009 8:30:42 GMT -5
KB, you said:
I have read different views on end times events, split rapture being one of them. One of the problems I would have is a difficulty seeing the man-child of Rev. 12 as being watchful believers.
Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
The way I see it the woman is Israel. Remember Joseph's dream?
Gen 37:8 And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words. Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
Including Joseph, you have the 12 stars (actually, Dan and Joseph are not mentioned and Joseph's two son's Ephraim and Manasseh are put in.) Another verse to consider, seeing the woman as Israel is a verse we often use around Christmas time.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
I know this sounds like bad grammar, but, "Who is us?" This verse is speaking of Israel, she is the us. She was given a son that would be a ruler and a governor, he was the mighty God, Jesus. Notice:
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.
Again, compare scripture with scripture regarding the persecution of this child.
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Now let's look to the time of the birth of Christ.
Mat 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Mat 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him. Mat 2:3 When Herod the king had heard [these things], he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. Mat 2:4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.
Mat 2:12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way. Mat 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
Mat 2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men. Mat 2:17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, Mat 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping [for] her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.
I think the above mentioned scriptures work hand-in-hand with each other to show who the woman and child are. Rev. 12:1-5 is a brief history of Israel and how she brought forth Jesus.
I knew a fellow who had the disobedient Christians dying and going to hell temporarily to be purged, and the obedient Christians going to heaven immediately upon death. The issue he was dealing with was the shallow professing church of our day. What he needed to do was to address that issue first and he would see that most "professors," are going to hell to stay.
If the watchful believers are the man-child then the woman would have to be the church. This is a teaching that found it's origin in the Roman Catholic Church. Still others in the RCC saw the woman as Mary, Queen of Heaven, a Babylonian pagan cross-over.
I think the above scriptures should carefully be considered.
Bro. Ben
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Post by kingdomblievr on Feb 12, 2009 14:23:20 GMT -5
Brother Ben, I have a long reply, but I'll have to type it in later. Meanwhile could you explain this?
"If the watchful believers are the man-child then the woman would have to be the church. This is a teaching that found it's origin in the Roman Catholic Church. "
I have never heard this before, since I am not Catholic.
Thanks.
Here is the rest of my reply.
The vision in Revelation 12 is a heavenly vision, and the church has a heavenly existence, Israel does not. The Jews are the earthly people of God, represented by Ishmael. Thier hope is bound up in earthly promises. The vision is in the middle of other visions concerning the final 3-1/2 years: 2 witnesses, trumpet judgments, anti-Christ, false prophet, and the great whore. The way the vision reads like a play-by-play of a sporting event, it strikes me as a desription of events that are tightly bound together chronologically. (Over the space of a few months or years, not millennia.) For this reason, I do not believe that the man-child is representative of the incarnation of Christ. It is too far removed from the tribulation events.
In my view, the church is a better candidate for the heavenly woman. The church is seated in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2:6) We have put on Christ, and the woman is clothed with the sun, being Christ who is the Sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) Now, if Christ is represented by the sun, He is not the man-child, also, is He? The man-child is the company of humble, pure servants of God who are equipped and prepared to take over the responsibilites of the angelic hosts, both good and evil in the second heaven while the war rages between the two camps of angels. It is imprtant also to note that in the description of the ascension of Christ, He is "taken up, He "goes up", He is "received" into the clouds. He is not "caught up" or "snatched away". But the man-child is, and the same word describing the catching up of the man-child is used in First Thessalonians 4:17 to describe the manner in which the saints are raptured. Harpazo is a sudden seizing. The ascension of Christ was slow, and the disciples watched as He went up, and continued to gaze up in the sky for a little while afterward. I think this is an important distinction. In my view, the woman is the end-times church, the stars are the apostles, the sun is the Lord Jesus Christ, and the moon is the kingdom of darkness. The man-child is the first-ripe portion of the church saints in whom Christ has been formed (Galatians 4:19) the innumerable multitude that suddenly appears before the throne of God in Revelation 7. Satan and his angels are expelled from their angelic thrones in the second heaven shortly thereafter. After being cast down to earth, they begin to pour out their own wrath on the remnant church and the Jews through the antichrist and his followers, but the Lord protects them. This persecution lasts 1260 days or 3-1/2 "times". In summary, the heavenly woman can not represent the earthly house of Judah, it must be the church. The man-child is consistent with a mid-trib raptured portion of the church that was "counted worthy to escape" (Luke 21:36). And the whole vision is confined to the 3-1/2 year period of the Great Tribulation, which is consistent with the surrounding chapters in the book of Revelation from chapter 7 through 19.
What does all this mean? Most of the church will go through the tribulation. I think you agree. The church and the Jews will be persecuted greatly. I think you agree. The overcoming saints are going to reign with Christ as their reward for faithfulness under persecution. I think you agree. Saints who die refusing to take the mark will reign with Christ, too. I think you agree. The Jews who are alive when Christ returns will repent and accept him as their Messiah King and as the Son of God and will repopulate the Millennial earth along with the sheep nations of Matthew 25. Do you agree here? No born-again believer will be thrown into the lake of fire, though they may have all their reward destroyed and burned-up, and though they may be found naked as someone who was "saved as by fire". (First Corinthians 3:15)
BTW, I saw that Spurgeon believed that the woman at least included the church in his May 30, 1875 sermon titled "How They Conquered the Dragon". It was a good read.
The Lord bless you.
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Post by Brother Ben on Feb 13, 2009 8:59:22 GMT -5
This is the first part of my answer in regards to the Catholic church teaching that the woman of Rev. 12:1 is the church. I can see your conclusion by way of spiritualizing the content of this passage. I tend to interpret as much as possible in a literal sense. As the old quote goes, "When the plain sense make common sense, seek no other sense." When using a literal interpretation, the verse does not have to be subject to so much fables, metaphors, and alegories. Just my view.
Secondarily, this is from a homily given by Pope John Paul II.
As the Church contemplates Mary's motherhood, she discovers the meaning of her own motherhood and the way in which she is called to express it. At the same time, the Church's experience of motherhood leads to a most profound understanding of Mary's experience as the incomparable model of how life should be welcomed and cared for.
"A great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun" (Rev 12:1): the motherhood of Mary and of the Church
103. The mutual relationship between the mystery of the Church and Mary appears clearly in the "great portent" described in the Book of Revelation: "A great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars" (12:1). In this sign the Church recognizes an image of her own mystery: present in history, she knows that she transcends history, inasmuch as she constitutes on earth the "seed and beginning" of the Kingdom of God. The Church sees this mystery fulfilled in complete and exemplary fashion in Mary. She is the woman of glory in whom God's plan could be carried out with supreme perfection.
The "woman clothed with the sun"the Book of Revelation tells us "was with child" (12:2.) The Church is fully aware that she bears within herself the Saviour of the world, Christ the Lord. She is aware that she is called to offer Christ to the world, giving men and women new birth into God's own life. But the Church cannot forget that her mission was made possible by the motherhood of Mary, who conceived and bore the One who is "God from God", "true God from true God". Mary is truly the Mother of God, the Theotokos, in whose motherhood the vocation to motherhood bestowed by God on every woman is raised to its highest level. Thus Mary becomes the model of the Church, called to be the "new Eve", the mother of believers, the mother of the "living" (cf. Gen 3:20).
Mary thus helps the Church to realize that life is always at the centre of a great struggle between good and evil, between light and darkness. The dragon wishes to devour "the child brought forth" (cf. Rev 12:4), a figure of Christ, whom Mary brought forth "in the fullness of time" (Gal 4:4) and whom the Church must unceasingly offer to people in every age.
From: Pope John Paul II 1995 Encyclical Evangelium Vitae On the Value and Inviolability of Human Life
I'll post more on this later.
Ben
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Post by kingdomblievr on Feb 17, 2009 9:14:19 GMT -5
Apparently we are both wrong about the identity of the woman. Isaiah 66 identifies her as Zion. And she brings forth a nation in one day, not an individual. Note that in verse 8 it says children. Now we need to discern who is Zion in this passage. Is it the earthly city Jerusalem, or prophetic Jerusalem? The Jerusalem which is above, the mother of us all. (Galatians 4:26)
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Post by Brother Ben on Feb 18, 2009 8:52:14 GMT -5
I would be inclined to view Isaiah 66 as a mill. kingdom verse. Notice:
Isa 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? [or] shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
This nation brought forth in one day is Israel into the kingdom.
Zec 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they [are] men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH. Zec 3:9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone [shall be] seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. Zec 3:10 In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.
In that day, Israel will be redeemed (Rom. 11:25,26) and brought into the kingdom to dwell in peace in the tabernacle (kingdom) under the vine and fig tree.
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Here is the O.T. picture leading up the the Feast of Tabernacles (a picture of the kingdom age.)
Lev 23:26 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Lev 23:27 Also on the tenth [day] of this seventh month [there shall be] a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD. Lev 23:28 And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it [is] a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God. Lev 23:29 For whatsoever soul [it be] that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people. Lev 23:30 And whatsoever soul [it be] that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people. Lev 23:31 Ye shall do no manner of work: [it shall be] a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. Lev 23:32 It [shall be] unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth [day] of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.
As you see there is a day prior to going into the tabernacle they are atoned for (forgiven of sin.) Then this nation goes into the tabernacles.
Lev 23:40 And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days. Lev 23:41 And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. [It shall be] a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month. Lev 23:42 Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths:
The Lord will judge his kingdom out of Jerusalem.
Oba 1:20 And the captivity of this host of the children of Israel [shall possess] that of the Canaanites, [even] unto Zarephath; and the captivity of Jerusalem, which [is] in Sepharad, shall possess the cities of the south. Oba 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S.
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