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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2011 16:39:15 GMT -5
This thread has been an immeasurable blessing to me. The wise teachings of Brothers Ben and John have illuminated me to an understanding of God's word that I have never had. I thank you Brothers for being faithful to study the Word and to share the wisdom which God has imparted to you.
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Post by Brother John on Mar 27, 2011 22:24:47 GMT -5
I mentioned Acts 15 a couple of times in my posts on the sabbath because it is there at the meeting in Jerusalem that the apostles and elders of the church addressed the issue of the Mosaic law and it’s place in the life of the New Testament believer. This is the greatest chapter in the NT defining Christian doctrine in regards to salvation. The council itself was convened as a result of certain Judaizers and Pharisees who were teaching the necessity of NT believers to get circumcised and keep the law of Moses (Acts 15:1-6). What was the final determination of these leaders of the church? It was that, “we believe that through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.” (Acts 15:11). Out goes the law, the commandments, and the sabbath.
Well, 2,000 years later and the Judaizers are still around. In fact, they are busier than ever. Seventh Day Adventists and most cults certainly fill the role. As do Hebrew Roots people, many Messianics, sabbatarians and other groups. This heresy comes in many forms and takes many shapes. What does scripture have to say about those who would put new covenant saints back under the law, or any part of the law…including the sabbath?
“Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?” Acts 15:10
“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:" Acts 15:24
“But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” Galatians 2:14-16
I am a New Testament Gentile believer and a member of the church, the body of Christ, through faith in His finished work. I am not a Jew under the old covenant and bound under its commandments, observances and laws. The Mosaic law is dead to me so that I may be married to another, Jesus Christ, and live by His law of the Spirit.
Therefore,I do not keep the Passover. I observe the Lord’s supper. I speak English, not Hebrew. So I do not call Him Yeshua. I call Him Jesus. If I see you in the street I am going to greet you with a “Hello!” and not with “Shalom!” I don’t cover my head like an Old Testament Jew and I don’t have a beard (only because I can’t grow one!). I don’t wear a prayer shawl and I’ve never blown a Shofar. I love pork chops, bacon and sausage. When I sing, I sing hymns in English, not praise songs in Hebrew (1Cor.14:19). You won’t find a mezzuza on my front door or the flag of Israel hanging on my wall. I’ve never even been to Israel and don’t have any plans to be until the Lord comes back. I don't need the wailing wall when I have the prayer closet. And I do not observe the Old Testament Jewish sabbath.
You find so many of these types of things being practiced by many Christians today with the mistaken notion that it will help them in their faith by causing to them to be more authentic, holy, biblical, spiritual, mystical, closer to God or whatever you want to call it. It will do nothing but cause you to pretend to be something that you are not. We must get it straight…a Jew is a Jew, a Gentile is a Gentile, and the church is the church. Things that are different are not the same!
For 2,000 years the majority of churches and believers have kept Sunday as their day of rest and worship. This, in and of itself is not wrong. If a saint or an assembly of saints choose to hold Sunday as the day of the week upon which they gather, that's fine. We've seen what the NT has to say about these matters.
Unfortunately, while those who teach a seventh day sabbath commandment for Christians are in error, there is also much misunderstanding and unscriptural belief concerning Sunday keeping by those who do so. The Christian church's false ideas regarding Sunday has only bolstered the cause of sabbatarians who rightly point to the false teachings about Sunday as justification for their own false doctrine.
Today, as I write this, millions of SDA and assorted sabbath keepers will think they are pleasing God by obeying a commandment He never gave them. Tommorrow, on Sunday, tens of million of others will believe that they are keeping the Christian day of worship required by the Bible. Both groups are wrong. Sabbatarians have been misled by Ellen White and other false teachers. On the other hand, many more believers have had their beliefs dictated more by church history, church fathers and church tradition then by the word of God. Both sides of this issue are in error. As is often the case, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
We've all heard and used terms like "the Christian Sabbath," and the "Lord's Day" many time in regards to Sunday. Terms like this betray the false ideas many Christians hold to when it comes to Sunday. Let's take the term, "the Christian Sabbath." The first red flag that should be raised immediately is the fact that no such terminology exists in scripture. Be careful when men create nonbiblical words to explain biblical doctrines. Often, those words take on a life of their own and end up producing all sorts of false teaching. Words can be dangerous things and can be twisted to promote all sorts of lies. “Catholic,” for example. I personally don’t even like using words like “Trinity” or “rapture.” I know what they are supposed to represent and I know how they have been twisted as well. I like to use God’s words when trying to understand and explain God’s Book. Why not call it the “Godhead” instead of the Trinity? That’s what God calls it. Or how about “our gathering together unto him” instead of the rapture?
We've seen previously that there is no such thing as the Christian sabbath in scripture. There is one sabbath in the word of God. It is the seventh day Jewish sabbath that was given as a sign by God to the nation of Israel. That day has never been changed, and there is no such animal as a Christian sabbath in the Book. Let me revise that statement. "The Christian sabbath," if you want to call it that, is not a day...it is a person. Our sabbath is the Lord Jesus Christ, who because of His finished work on our behalf we have true spiritual rest. If you tell a lie enough times, however, people start to believe it. So it is with the term “Christian Sabbath.” From the days of the early church fathers, this unbiblical term has been thrown around so much that most Christians believe that there is actually such a thing…when there isn’t.
So how about "the Lord’s Day?" Sunday is the Lord’s Day, is it not? Ask the vast majority of Christians what the Lord’s Day is and they will tell you that it is Sunday. We’ve all said things like, “I don’t work on the Lord’s Day,” or “We’re going to the house of God on the Lord’s Day.” Is Sunday really the Lord’s day though? (And is the house of God really a building that you go to? But I digress.) Or is that just another man made tradition that has been kicked around for so long that we just unquestioningly assume that it’s true and blindly accept it for fact? Well, “What saith the scripture?”
There is only one place in scripture where the term, “the Lord’s day” is used. It’s found in Revelation 1:10:
“I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,”
The typical interpretation of this verse is something to the effect that John was full of the Holy Spirit on a Sunday when he saw his visions. Without getting too sidetracked into another study right now, this passage is made clear when comparing scripture with scripture. John was not in the Spirit here in the sense that every Christian is (1 Cor. 12; Gal.5:16,25; Rom.8:9; etc.). Notice the expression again in Revelation 4.
"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne." Rev.4:1,2
This is not a Christian being born again or filled with the Holy Spirit of God. This is John being caught up in the Spirit and being given visions and revelations of future events. This is Paul’s “out of body” experience in 2 Corinthians 12. It is Ezekiel being carried out “in the Spirit of the Lord” and being set down in the valley of dry bones. It’s similar to Philip being caught away by the Spirit of the Lord and transported to another location in Acts 8.
Now, what about the “Lord’s day?” This day is referred to many times in scripture as the “day of the Lord, “ and it’s a reference to the Second Advent and the events surrounding it. (Isa.2:12; Jer.46:10; Joel 1:15; 2:1,11,31; 3:14; Amos 5:18,20; Obad.15; Zeph.1:7,14; Zech14:1; Mal.4:5, etc.). So, what you have happening in Revelation 1:10 is John being caught up or transported in the Spirit 2,000 years forward to the last days, to the second coming, to the day of the Lord, to the Lord’s day, and being told to write the things which he sees (Rev.1:19). More can be said about all this, but for the sake of our purpose here, it’s enough to know that the Lord’s day is not a reference in scripture to either Saturday or Sunday. It’s a reference to that day that we are all looking forward to when our Lord returns in all His glory and sets up His kingdom of righteousness and peace upon the earth.
We’ve seen from scripture that the first day of the week is not the “Christian sabbath,” nor the “Lord’s day,” nor a day specifically commanded to be kept for rest or worship. So why has the church historically, from its earliest days, set the first day aside for these purposes? Is it because of Constantine and pagan Roman tradition as the sabbatarians claim? Not at all. Observing the first day of the week precedes Constantine by 300 years. Again, I have to emphasize that there is no command in scripture for observing any particular day. There is precedence and pattern set forth though that makes the first day of the week a real good choice if you are going to keep a day.
1) Mt.28:1; Mk. 16:9 – Our Lord Jesus Christ rose from the dead upon the first day of the week
2) John 20:19-22 – The Lord met with the disciples on the first day and gave them the Holy Spirit.
3) Acts 2:1-4 – The Holy Spirit came down upon the disciples on the first day of the week at Pentecost and empowered them for witness.
4) Acts 20:7 – The disciples gathered together on the first day to break bread and listen to preaching.
5) 1 Corinthians 16:1,2 – Collections were gathered on the first day of the week.
In addition, the first day of the week is also the eighth day, as noted by some of the quotes brother Ben posted. In scripture, seven is the number of wholeness or completion, while eight is the number of new beginnings. Just like an octave in a scale of music where seven notes completes the scale and the eighth note is the first note all over again an octave higher. Eight is the first in a series of new things. Noah was the eighth person and there were eight souls in the ark (2 Pet.2:4;1 Pet.3:20) These eight populated the new earth. They were the new beginning. Eight days are accomplished when a male Jewish child is born, and it is circumcised on the eighth day (Lk.2:21; Lev.12:3;etc.). Circumcision is a type of spiritual circumcision by which a man is made a new creature in Christ (Col.2:11-13).
There were eight sons of Jesse. It was David, the eighth, who was a type of Christ (1 Sam.16:10,11). There are 7,000 years of man’s history with the 7th thousand year being a millennial rest (Rev.20). After this 7th thousand year we enter the 8th thousand year which brings with it a new heavens and a new earth with New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven (2 Pet.3:13;Rev. 21). As a note, these 7,000 years are pictured by the seven day week (2 Pet.3:8) with the 7th thousand year being the millennial sabbath rest as pictured by the seventh day sabbath. This millennial rest will be the millennial reign of a Jewish King over a Jewish kingdom ruled from Jerusalem. It is the Jewish theocracy. The physical, literal Kingdom of Heaven. Hence it is typified by the Jewish sabbath.
We as members of the church are new creatures under a new covenant with new commandments and a new testament following a new and living way with a future in New Jerusalem. Let us not sew new cloth unto an old garment or put new wine into old bottles by allowing ourselves to be brought back under the bondage of the old covenant. Now in light of the verses above and the reasons given here, setting the first day aside as a day of gathering and worship was a tradition and habit from the earliest days of the church, long before Constantine and Rome ever decided to get in on the action.
I'd like to post one more time on this subject and speak about Hebrews 4 as well as the Jewish calendar and it's relationship to the sabbath.
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Post by Brother Ben on Mar 28, 2011 12:49:45 GMT -5
I just have to jump in and say, Amen! This study really has been a blessing and very educaitonal. Bro. John, keep it coming!   Bro. Ben |
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Post by Brother John on Mar 28, 2011 19:55:59 GMT -5
Nooooooooooooo!!!!!!!! I was just almost done with another post on the sabbath when the computer decided to take its own sabbath and shut down! All was lost! Well, we're leaving for NY for a few days tomorrow so I'm going to have to do it when we get back.
Brother Ben, thank you for allowing me to post. It has been a blessing to me as well to be able to study this material again. Hopefully, others will be blessed also.
John
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Post by Tammy on Apr 1, 2011 22:47:42 GMT -5
Whoa! Okay, a lot has been posted on this subject, and I want to address each point if I can, but it will take some time.
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Post by Tammy on Apr 1, 2011 23:42:34 GMT -5
First of all, I want to say that we do not know much about Seventh Day Adventist teachings, only what is obvious, that they observe the seventh-day Biblical sabbath. But even a broken clock is right twice a day. And I am not an expert.. Just sharing what we've seen in our own Bible studies. Okay, here we go.. I am also very well aware of Constantine, his edicts and his corrupting influence upon the church. This is a favorite point of argument used by sabbatarians. Although there is truth to it, that truth is twisted to arrive at a false conclusion. Let’s bypass Constantine, Rome and the church fathers for a moment and take a look at our final authority in all matters of faith and practice. In the end, the ONLY thing that matters is, “What saith the scriptures?” It is true, that the final word must be from the Scriptures. The reference to Constantine and historical facts are only supporting evidence.  In order to have a correct scriptural understanding of the sabbath and how it pertains to us as New Testament saints, it is absolutely essential to have the proper foundation in regards to Biblical interpretation. Invariably, incorrect ideas about the sabbath and other similar issues arise out of some misunderstandings concerning basic and fundamental scriptural truths. The first of those truths is found in 2 Timothy 2:15: "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."So then, there are right and proper division in the scriptures. I'm not sure how important this is, and I hate to split hairs, but that is not what "rightly divide" means here. Divide means dissect/expound. It refers to how the Word is taught, explained, as the Levites did in the book of Nehemiah, " 8:8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading." The word "divide" does not mean what you imply. It is One Book, with One Message. One Faith for One People, for all time. ...The most obvious being that of the Old Testament and the new, or the old covenant and new. We know that the Old Testament is just as much scripture as is the new. Not only that, but it is written for our learning and admonition (Romans 15:4;1 Cor. 10:11). After all, the Old Testament scriptures are all about one subject, the Lord Jesus Christ (John 5:39; Luke 24:44). That being said, the Old Testament (old covenant/Law of Moses), DOCTRINALLY, is not applicable to the New Testament believer. If it is true that the "Old Testament" is not applicable doctrinally to the "New Testament" believer, then why did the Bereans search the Scriptures to check if Paul's doctrine was correct? Surely you would not say that it was NT writings that they were searching. And what "holy Scriptures" were they that Timothy was taught as a child? I am sure that some of Paul's epistles were available by then, but the whole cannon of the NT Scriptures was not together. Whatever Timothy was taught, it was able to make him wise unto salvation through faith in Christ Jesus, which is of course laid out in the OT Scriptures. What Scriptures did Paul use to reason with the Thessalonians in the synagogue? "And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ." (Acts 17:2-3) Paul taught straight out of the OT Scriptures throughout his whole ministry, and there is no NT doctrine that contradicts the OT. The covenant was made with a specific people, Israel. The Law was given to them and they were under it. You and I are not under the Law of Moses. We are not Israel, and we are under a new covenant or the law of the Spirit (2 Cor. 3:6; Rom.8:2). So, there is a big difference. There is a division that must be made and understood. The misunderstanding or the twisting of this truth has brought forth much heresy and false teaching. Here's another division found in 1 Cor. 10:32: "Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:"Scripture speaks of three distinct groups of people. The Jew, or Israel. The Gentile, or non-Jew. The church of God, or saved Jews and Gentiles as one in the body of Christ. That's a fundamental difference that must be understood. See, that is one of our problems. We like to divide what God wants to join together, and vice versa. Eph 2:14 "For he is our peace, who hath made both ONE, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;" Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Now I know what you are thinking. (At least I think I do. ) You are thinking that when Jews get saved, they join the Christians who are in Christ, and so we are all one, once they join US. But we Christians have the unBiblical idea that God scrapped the foundation He had built in the holy lineage of Israel, and now there's this Gentile church that runs the show these days. The fact is that there is one line of people who found grace in God's sight, that runs down throughout all of time, from Adam, to Noah, to Moses, to David, to Isaiah, Daniel, John the Baptist, Paul, you and me who have believed God, and he counts it for righteousness! It's called the Good Olive Tree, and by God's grace we may be grafted into it. Not all Jews are part of it, but throughout most of history it was made up of mostly obedient Jews. Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Okay, I have to stop here for now. It's bedtime. But I will be back as soon as possible. Blessings on each of you ~ Sister Tammy |
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Post by Brother John on Apr 4, 2011 1:03:31 GMT -5
Before I respond to sister Tammy's last post, I would like to say a couple of things that I think need to be said. I believe we are all Bible-believers here on this forum and take the words and commandments of God very seriously. That includes the commands and instructions on the proper roles of men and women in the church and in their interaction with one another.
It seems that for many believers, those instructions take a back seat or are ignored when it comes to their behavior online. That goes for both men and women. There is something about the anonymity and lack of personal accountability in the virtual world that allows some of God's people to feel a bit more uninhibited and behave in ways they otherwise would not. I have witnessed all sorts of unscriptural behavior and interaction on "Christian" forums by professing believers. Things that would never be allowed in a church setting or in personal interaction are tolerated, and even encouraged, in the world of cyber space. While online social networking and forums like this one have benefits and can prove to be very valuable, there are also serious dangers to be aware of and avoided. Many saints have been snared by Satan's "net" and entangled in his "web."
The point that I would like to address here is the topic of doctrinal issues and how they should be handled on forums like "Pilgrim Believer's." Specifically, I'm thinking of how these matters should be handled between believing men and believing women. How should it be handled online? Exactly the same as it would be in the real world. What is God's instruction regarding this matter?
"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." 1 Tim. 2:11,12
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." 1Cor.14:34,35
Much can be said in the expounding and explaining of these verses. There are reasons for the above instructions and there are doctrinal implications involved. That is not the focus of this post however. Suffice it to say for now that it is not the sisters place to teach the brethren, either in person...or online. That is exactly what is taking place all the time on various forums.
Saved, conservative, fundamental, Bible-believing men are getting on these forums and posting on threads concerning all manner of doctrines and teachings. Right there along with those men are saved, conservative, fundamental, Bible-believing women posting on those same threads. What are they posting? They are posting exactly the same sorts of things the men are. The ladies are giving their viewpoints, opinions, and ideas regarding doctrinal subjects. In the name of "discussion" and "dialog," Christian women are in fact attempting to teach Christian men. I have even seen sisters engage in "correcting" brothers on matters of doctrine (see previous post on this thread). My wife will sometimes remind me of something I've forgotten to do around the house. Jokingly I will tell her to stop preaching at me. Her loving response is always, "I'm not preaching. I'm just saying!" Well, we're just having a bit of fun with one another, but you can call it saying all you want to...it's still preaching! You can call it discussion, dialog or anything else you want to call it, but teaching by any other name is still teaching!
My brothers and sisters, this is not only unbiblical, but it is anti biblical. I have to wonder if those who engage in such behavior online don't do so in real life as well. There is a rebellious spirit behind such matters, and I doubt if those who are effected by it are limited to expressing such a spirit online only. I for one will not tolerate it on the internet any more than I would in a church, in my home or anywhere else. God is against it, and so am I. I refuse to engage in online debate with a sister over doctrine and Bible teaching. I will not have a back and forth, hash it out, or get into it with a lady. I just won't do it. I will answer questions to the best of my ability for those who ask them and will teach what I know to be so from scripture for those who are interested. I'll get into doctrinal discussions and bounce things around with brothers in Christ. What I will not do is ignore God's commands about these matters and proceed to allow myself to interact with others online in a manner which is contrary to what God said. I don't say this with any animosity toward anyone. I'm just being as plain as I can be and telling it like it is.
So, how should a sister behave herself online? The scriptures quoted above are clear in that she is to go to her husband with any questions regarding doctrinal matters. In cases where that is not an option, such as a single woman or one with a lost husband, she should go to the elders of her church and seek answers there. A younger girl in a Christian family has her father to go to. If a sister does come into forums such as this and onto threads where the subject matter is doctrine and biblical teaching, she should come with an humble heart and a teachable spirit. If she has questions, she should ask them (if she is married I believe she should ask for her husband's approval first). Questions are fine, and encouraged. Asking questions is a great way to learn. It's when a sister goes from asking questions to "giving her opinion" or attempting to teach doctrine on a forum to the men where the line is crossed and there is transgression of the commandments of God. You would not stand behind the pulpit in a church full of men and proceed to teach them Bible (at least I hope you wouldn't). Neither should you presume to stand behind a virtual pulpit and attempt to do the same while hiding behind the cloak of your monitor and keyboard.
If a sister does have a disagreement with something being taught on a forum, she has two choices. One, assuming she and her husband are in agreement on the issue, he could get on and attempt to reconcile the matter (if he really cares to). I'd be more than willing and glad to discuss the sabbath or any other issue with sister Tammy's husband. Or two, she can silently disagree while asking God for wisdom and truth in the matter, and/or find another forum of like minded people with whom to fellowship.
Now, for the sake of those who have read sister Tammy's latest post and her "rebuttals" of the points I've brought up about the sabbath, I want to respond to her response. Again, I will not get into a doctrinal debate with a sister. Particularly a married sister and one I've never even met. I must, however, address Tammy's post lest others read it and are misled by the errors contained in it. I also have one more additional post about the sabbath I'd like to write up.
However, this took longer than I thought. It's now 2:00 A.M. and I am tired, so I will continue with my other posts tomorrow (or later today actually). Please let me emphasize again that I did not write this to put down, condemn or embarrass anyone. It is not a matter of anger. pride or hatred. It is a matter of obedience to God and love for the brethren. When there is open sin, it must be dealt with openly for the sake of all. When done for the right reasons and with the right spirit, it is one of the most charitable things that can be done (1 Tim.5:20; Pro.27:5,6).
Brother John
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Post by Brother Ben on Apr 4, 2011 9:30:26 GMT -5
I just want to add my, amen, to these comments. I believe this is a proper attitude toward this type of situation that has arisen regarding our discussion on the sabbath. I would ask that no more be posted on this topic till I state otherwise WITH THE EXCEPTION, of the posts that I have asked Bro. John to make. Thank you for your compliance and a cooperative Christian spirit.
Bro. Ben
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Post by Brother John on Apr 4, 2011 23:21:02 GMT -5
First of all, I want to say that we do not know much about Seventh Day Adventist teachings, only what is obvious, that they observe the seventh-day Biblical sabbath. But even a broken clock is right twice a day. As a former SDA, I don't want that broken clock. I prefer to have a working one that is correct all the time, not just twice a day. Actually, the SDA "clock" is not even right twice a day. It's a busted clock with no numbers, the arms having fallen off, and springs popping out all over the place. If sabbatarians were better familiarized with SDA teaching and the foundational flaws in their theology, they might see how that they are committing the same errors and might be delivered thereby. As far as the little winking icon, that's a great example of what I was talking about in my previous post. I wouldn't want a sister in the Lord winking at me in person, and I don't care for a virtual version of it online either. Some may think nothing of it, but have you read what scripture says about the winking eye? (Pr.6:12-15; 10:10). Interestingly enough, the same character who winks with his eyes also teaches with his fingers. Nothing gets posted online unless it is typed out! I'm not sure how important this is, and I hate to split hairs, but that is not what "rightly divide" means here. Divide means dissect/expound. It refers to how the Word is taught, explained, as the Levites did in the book of Nehemiah, " 8:8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading." The word "divide" does not mean what you imply. The above quote was in response to my points on the foundational importance of 2 Tim.2:15 and "rightly dividing the word of truth." Actually, the explanation given here contradicts itself. We are told that God did not mean dividing when He said dividing. What he meant was dissect or expound. However, as anyone who has ever dissected anything knows, in order to dissect something...you must divide it up! There is a deep problem here that is at the root of many heresies. When someone does not believe that God's words are perfect and infallible as they stand, then it is very easy to change those words whenever they don't suit your particular theology. It happens all the time and is part of the reason for all the new versions. So dividing doesn't really mean dividing. It actually means something else. God didn't really mean what he said there and we're going to help him out by letting folks know what he really meant. In other words, we won't let the word of God judge and correct us. We'll sit in judgment on it and correct it to make it better fit in with our theology! This is standard operating procedure for all cults, hereticks and assorted Bible-correctors. This is very dangerous ground to be on. What does dividing mean in 2 Tim.2:15? Let's put aside man made opinions of what anyone thinks it means and allow scripture to interpret itself and let the Holy Spirit teach us what He means. We do this by comparing spiritual things with spiritual things and scripture with scripture. If you are reading this, take out your concordance right now and run the references on all the verses with the word "dividing" in them. There are only four in the Old Testament and three in the New .(Josh.19:49,51; Isa.63:12; Dan.7:25; 1 Cor. 12:11; 2 Tim.2:15; Heb. 4:12) After you've done that, run all the references with the words "divide," "divided," and "divideth." What you will find is that in every verse, in every book, in both testaments, God meant what he said and said what he meant. Every time the word dividing appears in scripture it means dividing. We don't need any help from the Hebrew or Greek to understand that. All we need is to believe what God said in the perfect Book which he has given us in our own language and allow the Author of that Book to tell us himself what he means by interpreting scripture with scripture ( 2 Pet.1:20). So, what does dividing mean in 2 Tim.2:15 when it says, " rightly dividing the word of truth?" One thing we know for certain is that it does not mean to expound, teach or explain the scriptures. It means exactly what it says...dividing. There are right and proper divisions in scripture and it is our job as workmen to study those divisions out and understand them. A great majority of heresies out there have their source in two errors. The first is the one already mentioned, that is, not believing what God said and correcting the scriptures to accommodate a particular doctrine. The second is a failure to rightly divide the scriptures. Our dear sister has fallen prey to both of these errors and it is my prayer that the Lord will grant her wisdom in these matters. It is One Book, with One Message. One Faith for One People, for all time. The Bible has one true Author and comes together as one Book. The central theme, or message, of the Bible is a King and his Kingdom. However, the Bible is actually composed of 66 different books and letters written by 40 different authors over a period of 1,500 years. These 66 books and letters are written at different times, to different people and for different reasons. The five books of Moses were not written to the same folks as the letters of Paul were. The epistles addressed to the churches are not addressed to the same group of people as the book of HEBREWS is. This: "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:" Eph.1:1is not the same as this.... "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting." James 1:1Things that are different are not the same. There are differences and those differences must be understood. "One Faith for One People, for all time?" When was the last time anyone on this forum went to the temple to offer sacrifices? How many of the men here were circumcised on the eighth day? When you shop for clothing, do you make sure that the clothes you buy are not of mixed fibers? Ever eat a hot dog, bacon, or a ham sandwich? Who here is waiting to inherit the physical promised land and what portion will be appointed for your tribe? You see, our faith may be in the same God and same scriptures as the Old Testament Jew, but the specifics, the out workings, the promises and the end result of our faith are quite different. Hence a new, and better, covenant. If it is true that the "Old Testament" is not applicable doctrinally to the "New Testament" believer, then why did the Bereans search the Scriptures to check if Paul's doctrine was correct? Surely you would not say that it was NT writings that they were searching. And what "holy Scriptures" were they that Timothy was taught as a child? I am sure that some of Paul's epistles were available by then, but the whole cannon of the NT Scriptures was not together. Whatever Timothy was taught, it was able to make him wise unto salvation through faith in Christ Jesus, which is of course laid out in the OT Scriptures. What Scriptures did Paul use to reason with the Thessalonians in the synagogue? "And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ." (Acts 17:2-3) Paul taught straight out of the OT Scriptures throughout his whole ministry, and there is no NT doctrine that contradicts the OT. The fact that there are two testaments should be a clear indication that they are not the same. I went into some detail on this subject in my previous posts, so I won't repeat it all here. Suffice it to say that our sister is taking passages of scripture out of context in order to prove an erroneous assumption. This, along with correcting the words of God and not rightly dividing the word of truth, is another major cause of heresies and false teachings. Let's take a quick look at the passages mentioned. 1) Acts 17:10-13 - This passage deals with the Bereans searching of the scriptures daily to see whether the teachings of Paul were so. Would I say that it was New Testament writings they were searching? No, it was obviously Old Testament. Does this prove that the OT is doctrinally applicable to the NT believer? Not at all. Examine the passage and several things become readily clear. The Bereans spoken of here were JEWS ( vs.10,11) in the synagogue to whom Paul went to preach the gospel. What was the gospel Paul preached? It was the death, burial and resurrection of Christ ( 1 Cor.15:1-4). Paul was preaching the Messiah to the Jews. So, what would those Jews be searching the OT scriptures for? Without a doubt they would be looking at the promises and prophesies concerning the Messiah in order to see whether Jesus fit the bill and Paul was telling the truth. That's what is going on here, and that's all. There is nothing here at all to even remotely indicate that the OT is doctrinally applicable to the NT saint. 2) 2 Tim.3:15 - What scriptures were Timothy raised on which were able to make him wise unto salvation through faith in Christ? The very same OT scriptures which the Bereans searched regarding the Messiah. Timothy knew those scriptures and therefore knew the truth about Christ, thereby putting his faith in Jesus. The scriptures spoken of here and in the passage above in Acts have everything to do with the Jewish Messiah and the prophesies concerning him. On the other hand, they have absolutely nothing to with practical doctrine for the NT believer under the new covenant in the church age. 3) Acts 17:2,3 - This is the passage dealing with Paul reasoning with the Thessalonian Jews in the synagogue. What was he reasoning about? Like Tammy posted above, " Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ." In other words, we're right back again to Acts 17 with the Bereans and 2 Tim.3 with Timothy. Old Testament scripture dealing with the foretelling of the Messiah, not New Testament doctrine for the Christian. These are the OT scriptures that Paul taught out of during his ministry to testify and to confirm that Jesus Christ was and is the promised Messiah, exactly like Philip did with the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8.4) There is no NT doctrine that contradicts the OT? How about the ceremonial laws, the temple worship, the Levitical priesthood, the daily sacrifices, and on and on. Even a casual reading of the scriptures makes clear to anyone that there are many differences between the doctrines of the OT and NT. Once again, the fact that there are TWO TESTAMENTS should be a tip off that something is up. See previous posts on the sabbath for this point. See, that is one of our problems. We like to divide what God wants to join together, and vice versa. Eph 2:14 "For he is our peace, who hath made both ONE, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;" Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Here, Tammy is responding to my teaching on 1 Cor.10:32. The verse makes clear a division in scripture between three distinct groups of people. The Jews (unbelieving Israel), the Gentiles (unbelieving heathen), and the church of God (saved Jews and Gentiles as one in the body of Christ). This leads into a whole other study into the body of Christ and the mystery of the one body ( Eph.3:1-7). We can't possibly get into all the various facets of this topic here and now, but I will touch on it just a bit so as to answer Tammy's post. Our sister here quotes Eph.2:14, Gal.3:26-20 and Col.3:11. Once again, however, verses are quoted out of context to reach an erroneous conclusion. It is very true that in the body of Christ all are one. Jew and Gentile, male and female, black and white, etc. All differences are laid aside and we are all one in Christ. This is the mystery of Eph.3. HOWEVER, and this is a huge however, all of those differences are laid aside and we are one in Christ SPIRITUALLY. You must get this and understand it, for this is another point upon which there is much confusion and false teaching. Spiritually speaking, we are all one and the same in Christ. In our present physical condition and in this present world though, there are many differences and those differences remain whether you are saved or not. For example, let's look at one of the verses quoted. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal.3:28 Neither Jew nor Greek? I think that it is fairly obvious to anyone that has been alive for any amount of time that there certainly are differences between the groups mentioned above. There are Jews of Jewish descent and there are Gentiles of various descent. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME, and those physical, racial and ethnic differences are not done away with when a person gets saved. I was an Armenian for 19 years before I got saved, and I've been an Armenian for 21 years since being saved. I will remain an Armenian until I die. My wife, on the other hand, is of Hispanic descent. Her parents are from the Dominican Republic. Mine are from Iran and Turkey. We are both saved, but we are not the same. We are one in Christ, but in our physical characteristics we are quite different. Our getting saved has done nothing to change who and what we are in that regard here and now at all. I have brothers in Christ who are black, Japanese, Iranian, Dutch, Philippino and so on. Put us all side by side and I guarantee you'll see the difference! It's what's on the inside, Christ in us, that is the same. The outside, the physical, is quite different. Neither Jew nor Greek, yet both are addressed in scripture as separate and distinct groups again and again. Neither bond nor free? Paul sure didn't think so (Eph.6:5,8,9;Col.3:22;4:1; 1 Tim.6:1,2) Have you ever read Foxes Book of Martyrs or Martyr's Mirror? Do you keep up with Voice of the Martyr's and their constant reports of Christians the world round who are persecuted, imprisoned, tortured and killed on a daily basis? At this very moment, while I sit here free as a bird typing away at my keyboard, there are brothers and sisters of mine languishing away in cells somewhere in Communist and Muslim countries. Neither bond nor free? Are you kidding? There is no difference between my condition and theirs? We're one in Christ and all distinctions have been done away with? Not here and not now they haven't. No sir. We may be one spiritually in the same spiritual body, but physically speaking...I'm sitting in my bedroom while they are sitting behind bars. Neither male nor female? I think this one should be fairly obvious to anyone with eyes and needs no comment. My wife and I are both saved, but she is a woman and I am a man. Being in Christ hasn't changed that. I got saved, not neutered. If there is neither male nor female in Christ, why does the Lord bother to give instruction to the different sexes regarding their roles, their proper place and their interaction with one another? No difference between the sexes? Isn't that the world's philosophy? Even the world knows better than that though. If I was in a restaurant and tried going into the ladies restroom, somehow I doubt the police who arrest me are going to be swayed when I try using Galatians 3:28 as my defense! No brethren, these things are not so. Paul himself, the very one who wrote this... "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal.3:28 also wrote this.... "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." 1 Cor.12:13Paul knew better. He knew that in Christ we all have unity and are one. That unity and oneness will be manifest one day at his coming when we shall see him as he is and be like him (1 John 3:2; Rom.8:19) Until then, things that are different are not the same and there are proper and correct divisions in the word of God. To take the verses quoted above and try to use them to show that there are no differences or divisions here and now is to fall in line with the course of this world as they seek to lay aside all God given differences between the sexes, races, ages and religions and incorporate everyone into Satan's one big grey mush called the New World Order. As much as God unifies in Christ, he is a great divider as well. He began dividing right from the beginning ( Gen.1:4,6,7). God divides the sacred from the profane, the clean from the unclean, the saved from the lost, the wheat from the tares, the Jew from the Gentiles, the races, the genders and his own Book. What God hath put asunder, let not man (or woman) join together! Now I know what you are thinking. (At least I think I do. ) You are thinking that when Jews get saved, they join the Christians who are in Christ, and so we are all one, once they join US. But we Christians have the unBiblical idea that God scrapped the foundation He had built in the holy lineage of Israel, and now there's this Gentile church that runs the show these days. The fact is that there is one line of people who found grace in God's sight, that runs down throughout all of time, from Adam, to Noah, to Moses, to David, to Isaiah, Daniel, John the Baptist, Paul, you and me who have believed God, and he counts it for righteousness! It's called the Good Olive Tree, and by God's grace we may be grafted into it. Not all Jews are part of it, but throughout most of history it was made up of mostly obedient Jews. Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. No sister, you really don't know what I am thinking. The fact is that anyone who gets saved, Jew or Gentile, joins the body of Christ and is joined to one another ( 1 Cor.12:13). No one that I know believes that "God scrapped the foundation He had built in the holy lineage of Israel..." The Gentile church runs nothing. It is God that runs everything. As far as the olive tree and Romans 11, there is much doctrinal matter in that chapter that is greatly misunderstood by many as well. But I'm tired and done for now. Lord bless you all. Sister Tammy, I love you in the Lord and pray that God will grant you eyes to see, ears to hear and a heart to understand these matters. In fact, that's my prayer for each and everyone of us. None of us are immune to deception and all of us need to be sober and vigilant so as not to be devoured. John |
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Post by Brother John on Apr 6, 2011 11:22:55 GMT -5
No discussion concerning the sabbath issue would be complete without looking at Hebrews 3 and 4, a favorite passage for sabbatarians. Without getting into Hebrews itself and all of it's doctrinal applications, let's just go over the verses related to our subject here.
"Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief." Heb.3:7-19
"Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." Heb.4:1-11
What we have in this passage is actually FOUR different sabbaths being referenced, and not one of them is a seventh day sabbath for the NT believer. The four sabbaths dealt with here break down like this:
1) Heb.3:11,18 - This is speaking of the rest of the nation of Israel in the conquered land of Canaan. Rather than enter into that rest, the Israelites wandered in the desert for 40 years until all the generation that came out of Egypt (except Joshua and Caleb) died, because of their unbelief. The rest spoken of in this passage is rest for Israel in the literal land of Canaan, the promised land. Read the passage from 3:7-19, and it will bear this out.
2) Heb.4:1-3,10 - This rest is the rest of the believer in Christ who has heard the gospel and believed it by faith. We rest from our own works and trust in the finished work of Christ. It is a spiritual rest.
3) Heb.4:4 - The rest mentioned here refers back to Genesis 2:1,2 and is the original seventh day rest of God after the completion of the six days of creation. This is the sabbath day rest that was not revealed until 2,500 years after creation, with Moses and the giving of the law (Nehemiah 9:13,14). As mentioned in previous posts, the covenant of the law, including the sabbath, was made with the nation of Israel and not with the Gentile nations nor with the NT church.
4) Heb.4:5-9,11 - This is the rest promised to the nation of Israel, even though they failed the first time (Num.13,14; Heb.3:7-11). It is the 1,000 year millennial rest (Isa.2,11,14:7; 65; Joel 3; Amos 9; Rom.8; Rev.20; etc.), the Kingdom of Heaven established at the second coming of Christ. The seven day week points to 7,000 years of man's history (2 Pet.3:8) with the seventh day Jewish sabbath picturing the seventh thousand year rest with the King of the Jews ruling from his throne in Jerusalem (Psalm 47:7; Zech.14:16,17). God sanctified the seventh day because it prophesied the second advent of Jesus Christ. It was a Jewish sign (Ezek.20:20)pointing to the rule of a Jewish King during a promised time of rest for Israel.
When our Lord appears the second time, the Sun rises (Mal.4:1-4; Mt.13:43) on that Day called the "Day of the Lord." It ushers in a 1,000 year sabbath until that "day" ends. It is at this time that the Gentiles will all have to become Jewish proselytes (Isa.2; Ps.2; Zech.14; etc.) and observe the weekly sabbath (Isa.65,66). In addition, they will have to come to the temple at Jerusalem (Isa.56:7) and pray there (Isa.2:1-6; Zech.8:21,22; Luke 19:46). This is true of Gentiles in the millennium, not of Gentiles or of the church today.
In any case, nothing in these passages has anything to do with NT believers being required to keep the seventh day sabbath. Next, we'll look at the Jewish calendar and it's relationship to the sabbath.
Brother John
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2011 7:06:34 GMT -5
My husband puts it all very simply. Jesus' blood is the New Covenant and that we're no longer bound by the Jewish rituals (old wine) that had to stand in its place before He came. New wine (new convenant) applies to us in Matthew 9, Mark 2, and Luke 5.
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Post by Brother Ben on Jul 26, 2011 10:03:16 GMT -5
How true, and yet so many people try to REVIVE those old wineskins.  |
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