Pre-Trib Rapture?

[Brother Ben]

Has anyone here ever considered the possibility that there will not be a pre-tribulational rapture?

[jeff]

One guy I used to work with believed that. But he was also an a-millenialist. Truthfully, I've never really studied it out. That's my fault for not being a Berean...

[Brother Ben]

I've been doing an objective study on the Revelation and the End Times in general without study helps. It has been quite illuminating. It would do us all good to restudy all the passages in the New Testament on the second coming and its sequences.

[Brother Ben]

Brethren,
You need to read this article. It is definately "outside" of the box, but I would ask you to read it with objectively. You know I have said we are guilty of reading the bible with Red, White, and Blue colored glasses and this is one of those issues. May God help us to be open to what the Bible teaches.

Bro. Ben

www.pbministries.org/Eschatology/miscellaneous/smith_01.htm

[nightingale]

Brother Ben...I would pray that God gives us the strength to edure the tribulation if that is what He has in store for us...but I believe in pre-trib rapture based on this verse...

2 Thessalonians 2:7

I understand this verse to say that the Holy Spirit is restraining the wicked one (anti-christ) but once the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way then and only then will the wicked one be let loose to work his full evil.

So, if the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way then we Christians will be also, because God gave us His Spirit to comfort and be with us, He would not take His Spirit and leave us alone.

This is how I understand the rapture
Please jump in if I am wrong
Blessings
Sis Debbie

[Brother Ben]

Sister Debbie,
I read the following article on this very verse and it is pretty compelling. I do not agree with this guys view on problems in the text. But, I think he is on to the gist of the matter.

www.greenwood.net/~cdevans/Thessalonians2.htm

The point, whether he is right or not, that stood out to me was that there would be people saved during the tribulation and that no one gets saved without the help of the holy spirit. If "he" was the holy spirit being removed, no one could get saved during the tribulation.

[nightingale]

Ummm? Very Interesting! I never thought of it that way....I will have to look into that a little more........Thanks Brother Ben for the food for thought
I will get back to you on this
Blessings
Sister Debbie

[Brother Ben]

The Four Horseman of the Apocalypse

My testimony about this topic is similar to Oswald J. Smiths. I have a dear brother in the faith named Tony. When he challenged me about a post tribulational rapture, I, quite frankly, thought he was crazy! But, we spoke on it again with the scriptures open and I had to admit, that the predominent evidence is for a post tribulational rapture.

The verse we have always heard a million times

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [/b]

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with

O.k., now look at these:

1Cr 15:20 ¶ But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1Cr 15:21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.

1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's AT his coming.

1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Cr 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Do you see the sequence in verse 23, the resurrection is:
1. Christ first
2. They that are his AT his coming.

Also consider:

2 Thess. 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,

Again, we see the sequence, the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and then our gathering together unto him. This epistle is written to the saints at Thessolinica and they that are alive whenever this event takes place.

Question: When are we that alive and remain raptured?

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The Lord will descent with a trump, the dead in Christ, including the dead tribulation saints, then, we will be caught up, changed, to meet them. Pre-tribulation rapture assumes the ressurection and rapture is split up into pre and post tribulational events, but nowhere does the Bible say that these events will be split up. In fact...the Bible says that there are only TWO resurrections. The Revelation says:

Rev 20:4 ¶ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

According to the Bible, there are only two resurrections, the resurrection of the righteous at the end of the tribulation (vs 4,) they go into the kingdom, and the resurrection of the wicked at the end of the thousand years for the Great White Throne judgement.

Rev 20:11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
This is the second resurrection

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Jesus Christ taught on this and the Apostle Paul was in agreement with him. Jesus said:

Mat 24:29 ¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here, again, we have the sequence. At the close of verse 29, Jesus says, at the end of the tribulation, all these things will happen, then the trump(et) of God and gathering of the elect.

I think the powers that are shaken in heaven are the spiritual powers. One of the Strongs definitions for the word, "powers" is as follows:

Powers: dunamis:
power consisting in or resting upon armies, forces, hosts
For Synonyms see entry 5820

Eph 6:10 ¶ Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

I have always been taught that the "he" of 2 Thess. 2:7 was either the church or the holy spirit. Either way, it is taught that if the holy spirit goes out with church at a pre-tribulational rapture, the antichrist will be free to do what ever he wants because the (either way you see it) the church or the holy spirit letteh (holds back, restrains) evil. This is not true. Evil triumphs on every corner. The Earth is Satan's realm of authority right now. He is the prince of the power of the air. The only retraint Satan has is that which Christ exerts on him because Christ is a Sovereign ruler and Satan cannot do his bidding without permission. Remember Job.

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

But, when Christ returns, he will stop Satan and will manifest his rightful dominion. So, based on that I think there are two "he's" in this passage. The first being Christ, and the second being the antichrist/Satan.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he [Christ, insertion mine] who now letteth [will let], until he [the antichrist, insertion mine] be taken out of the way.

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:[/b]

My brothers and my sisters, be ready.

Luk 12:43 Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

More later

Ben

[nightingale]

This was very interesting....I must say I have never been taught this way, I just took it for granted what I was told...2 Thess. 2:7-8 makes more sense reading it the way you just posted it...Back to the scriptures...Thanks again Brother Ben
Sis Debbie
P.S. Tell my dear Sister Darlene I miss her and I hope to talk with her soon!

[Brother Ben]

Here is another possibility to consider. We assume the church will not go into the tribulation, that it is "only" for Israel, but what about this, the Lord told us just how he was going to present the church to himself:

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Now I know positionally our spotlessness is by our imputed righteousness, but the Lord is also "practical" and our outward righteousness which is a manifestation of our "obedience" is implied. Currently the "professing" church is a mess. God just might, in his sovereignty, choose to let the church go through a cleansing process.

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?


Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Rev 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Rev 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

These are the those who came out of the tribulation and have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb. Do we need to continue to wash our robes?

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

These verses are written to believers, not the lost. We continue to clease our robes by the same blood the washed us in the first place.

More later.

Ben

[Brother Ben]

I have taken these posts and am working them into a study that I plan to re-post for consideration and produce as an article. We are leaving for vacation at the end of the week, so it probably won't be for a couple of weeks.

Ben

[Brother Ben]

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he [Christ, insertion mine] who now letteth [will let], until he [the antichrist, insertion mine] be taken out of the way.

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

It is in context for Christ to restrain that Wicked until he consumes him with His (Christ's) coming. This being the case it has significant implications to our expectations regarding the beginning of the tribulation.

If there is no pretrib rapture of the church or removing of the holy spirit as some propose, then there is nothing standing in the way of the beginning of the tribulation or for the beginning of the works of the antichrist.

Brethren, I may be wrong about this and I am willing to be wrong if I can be proven wrong by scripture, but if I am right the implications are staggering. The professing church is in a state of apathy, even among those considered "fundamental" in their doctrine and perspective. People are more concerned about the things of the world and life than the life to come and the possibilities of persecution.

IF there is no pretrib rapture, the church will find herself in the midst of tribulation, see antichrist come to the front of world events. Some will awake out of spiritual sleepiness and deal with what has happened, but some will be in utter shock and horror. I believe some will even die of heart failure because they had all thier eggs in the rapture basket. Not preparing themselves for the spiritual demands placed upon a church in the tribulation, they will cave in to the pressures of the coming system.

With pro-Islamic, anti-Christian, pro-communist politicians like the liberal Democrats, and the "I'll sell my grandmother for the right price," Republicans, the power of that Wicked one in full swing, your Christian experience is going to change. We must be prepared. If we do not get ready, we too will be caught up in the crossfire.

Many professing Christians, perhaps the one who sat next to you last Sunday, is going to apostasize from the faith.

2 Thess. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

1Ti 4:1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

There will be no straddling the fence in those days. We who know better must be ready to help our families and those who will be in great confusion and despair.

Remember the warning of John to the church at Sardis:

Rev 3:1 ¶ And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Brethren, I know this may seem like a radical view, but you must go back and read the earlier post in this thread and pray about it. It is as we witness for Christ, if I am wrong, what does it matter? But, IF I am right, we had better do some soul searching, repenting, and spiritual maintainance.

1 Thess. 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2 Peter 3:11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,

2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

2 Peter 3:14 ¶ Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.


Watch and pray.

Bro. Ben

[Brother Ben]

I'm still doing alot of reading on this. It is truely fascinating and there is a ton of material. I didn't realize that many old time men of God were very strong on this issue. I was lead to believe that pre-trib rapture was always taught by most groups. I have found that this is not true. Intersting!

[nivek]

Brother Ben,

I became a Christian through the writings of Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins in the Left Behind book. A terrible possible future was laid out in that story, but that isn't what converted me. My conversion was based on their simple message: a good man isn't saved. This was me, and I was just like one of the main characters in the book.

After this, I did study quite a bit on the rapture and tribulation. I have a book by LaHaye called "The Rapture" (also previously published as "Rapture Under Attack"). It without question proclaims a pre-tribulation view, but LaHaye gives quite a bit of time to critiques of the other views, and I think he also goes through the history of some of the views. I would highly recommend it for your study. I think it will highlight difficulties with the post-tribulation view people have seen and you can then work through them and see what you become convinced of (if you have not already).

It seems there are difficulties with all of the views, and we may never know how it will all happen until it does. But, given the current topic, I will lay out a few of the post-tribulation difficulties here for discussion.

1) Post-trib ignores promises of escape from wrath of the Tribulation.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
(Revelation 3:10)

2) With the events of the Tribulation extensively laid out in Revelation (and Daniel, etc.), it will be possible to track its progress fairly carefully. If the rapture comes at the end, we will be able to predict Jesus' second coming fairly well. But, we are told we cannot predict the second coming.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
(Matthew 24:44)

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
(Acts 1:6-7)

3) As I understand it, the population of the earth will grow immensely in the Millennium. So, there must be people at the end of the Tribulation to inhabit the earth and procreate during the Millennium. If the rapture occurs at the end of the Tribulation, there will be no one left with a natural body to do this. Everyone left will have resurrection bodies or have been prohibited from the kingdom, and those with resurrection bodies will seemingly not procreate (see Matthew 22:30).

Those are a few of the highlights from LaHaye's chapter on the post-tribulation view for you to consider. I am looking forward to your conclusions as I have always been relatively convinced of the pre-tribulation rapture.

Brother Kevin

[Brother Ben]

Hmmmm? Good ones! I'll have to ponder those. I think I have an idea on some of them already, but I need to prepare for Wednesday night bible study first. Blessing to you all.