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Post by jacinda on Jun 6, 2007 17:31:56 GMT -5
Here is an article that I came across when I was looking for articles on non riestance. I think this man makes good points BUT I am not sure of myself enough to change my mind about all the teaching I've had for a pre trib view. I 've gotten a lot out your discussion and will continue to Pray and Read. Looking forward to your continued ideas. Jacinda www.bethelministries.com/ARTICLE_CONTENTS.htmIs anyone familar with this man's ministry? My dh says to be careful about the things he says... I'm not one to follow any one minstry anyway but it really got me thinking and then I noticed this thread here, by you all.
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Post by George on Jun 7, 2007 13:43:19 GMT -5
I just went to that web site. The very first thing I did was to read his doctrinal statement. then I read his biography that is also contained on the site.
I have some difficulties with both of them. When I have any type of difficulty with such things I have a tendency to not trust anything else they have to say. Those things will carry into any of their writings and their preaching.
I believe your husband's caution to not believe everything this man says is good advice. I recommend that if you do choose to go into any of his readings you do so with a good, sound Bible-based person who can guide you.
In Christ, George
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Post by Brother Ben on Jun 8, 2007 7:28:13 GMT -5
I was concerned about some comments he made in reference to salvation. It is too "works" oriented. I know some brethren are more calvanistic and others more arminian, but they often would agree that salvation is completely a work of the grace of God by faith. Anyone who strays from that really violates the dynamic of God's salvation.
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Post by jacinda on Jun 9, 2007 10:18:54 GMT -5
Thank you Both, for taking the time.
I Umm read the doctrinal statement and didn't feel comfortable with his [ Repentance and faith leading to salvation are granted to the elect ] When I read his testimony I had some red flags go up too. I was painting and watching the children at the same time. Reading for little breaks and thinking it over while painting. Not uncommon for me to be doing several things at once!
So appreciate your comments. Yes, it seems especially when you don't have a study Bible in hand while reading something you are not sure about one could get confused. I'd probably do better to be memorizing scripture while doing a project. My husband was preoccupied with something too so he just made a broad statement to "be careful" when I told him what I was reading.
I was wanting to get the non resistance issue settled in my heart and had started a search under that topic when his site's article appeared and I went on to reading more there.
BTW I think your articles/ and discussions on nonresistance were the most help to me.
Another thing that disturbed me was this man's comment about the compromising christian
Quote
" There is a spirit of compromise that most of the brethren are in bondage to today. I hope that you are not one of them.
*I especially was concerned about the following statement [This spirit is one that will lead you down the road to destruction.]
This is a spirit that shuts out the boldness that comes with the power of the Holy Spirit. One can then be overcome by a spirit of fear and recant his faith in a time of severe persecution."
Then in his testimony... Quote: " In 1984 Harry became a disciple of Jesus Christ according to the three conditions set forth in Luke 14[ and was filled with the Holy Spirit for the third time."] He makes this comment but in the doctrinal statement doesn't make comment on his stand in the area of the gifts/ Holy Spirit.
So adds some confusion.
I like a doctrinal statement that shows clearly the thought on the Holy Spirit and the Gifts.
But most of all I like to see that the people in the church that the doctrinal statement is supposed to be representing are practicing what they preach.
Too often we've noticed that a fairly conservative doctrinal statement is given but the people don't live/ practice according to the statement. For example we once visited a church under the Bible Church name and they said they were fundamentalists and ended up they were getting a new Pastor and he was from a Church of the Nazarene and wasn't for teaching eternal security- we spoke to him personally, they had the Lutheran Upper room devotional available and something of the Methodist Church too... Needless to say very confusing! We weren't able to continue there more than a few services.
Well, I'm going on a bit. I should end here. Please pray for my husband especially, that he will seek out a church for us and not be so discouraged!
Jacinda
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Post by George on Jun 9, 2007 11:49:34 GMT -5
That is one of the statements I had a very difficult time with Sister. I do not believe it to be in any way doctrinally correct. According to what I read in my Bible the Holy Spirit indwells us at the time of salvation. Indwells us meaning we are filled with the Holy Spirit. It is His Spirit which actually allows us to communicate with God. I do not believe there is any way a person can be filled with the Holy Spirit for even the second time much less the third time.
That being said it is rather for us to set aside the Holy Spirit or choose not to pay attention to Him. However that does not lessen His filling of us. When we turn again to Him He is there in all His fullness. It is us that leave and not Him.
This is only one of the things I read on that web site that caused me to not want to read any of the things the man has to say.
In Christ, George
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Post by Brother Ben on Sept 21, 2007 7:59:28 GMT -5
I wanted to make a clarification on the rapture issue. As earlier stated, I no longer believe the rapture will be before the tribulation. I would use the following text to support the actual timing of the resurrection of the righteous and the rapture.
Rev 19:1 ¶ And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
Rev 19:2 For true and righteous [are] his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
Rev 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
Rev 19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
According to this verse the bride should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white. If she had been in Heaven for the previous, almost, seven years, she would be in her white linens already.
Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called [The rapture, insert mine] unto the marriage supper of the Lamb[/b]. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.[/color]
This is the "Day of Christ" not to be confused with the "Day of the Lord" which is to follow. The Day of Christ is the rapture. It occurs before the Lord pours out His wrath without admixture of mercy on those who worshipped the beast, took the mark, and refused to repent. This Day of Christ does not come on believers as a thief in the night. Notice the following:
1Th 5:1 ¶ But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
This answers several of the questions Bro. Kevin got from Tim Lahayes book on pretrib rapture. Namely:
1) Post-trib ignores promises of escape from wrath of the Tribulation. "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Revelation 3:10)
This is a misapplication of this text. Some people, just as today, will escape martyrdom during the tribulation, and some will not. This cannot be a verse promising universal deliverance from tribulation because it has never been the case throughout church history. As far as the wrath of God goes, it will be poured out "after" the rapture and beleivers will escape the wrath of God.
2) With the events of the Tribulation extensively laid out in Revelation (and Daniel, etc.), it will be possible to track its progress fairly carefully. If the rapture comes at the end, we will be able to predict Jesus' second coming fairly well. But, we are told we cannot predict the second coming.
"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh." (Matthew 24:44)
"When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. (Acts 1:6-7)
True, the Lord said this to those present that day, but by inspriation, the apostle Paul expounded on just who would know. Those who are alive and remain at the coming of the Lord will be as those described in the above text (I Thess. 5:1-9.)
I am still working on question #3.
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Rev 19:11 ¶ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 ¶ And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all [men, both] free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Here is the wrath of God. The believers will be pulled out prior to this and at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
I will come back to this later.
Bro. Ben
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kscarle
Member
Philippians 4:4, Romans 12:1, John 14:15
Posts: 97
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Post by kscarle on Dec 1, 2007 11:17:49 GMT -5
The great tribulation is God's wrath poured out and I do not believe that we are appointed unto wrath, however I do know that there will be a time of sorrows preceding the rapture and yes I am pre trib, but I also know that there will be a time of sorrows and I think that often people will confuse that with part of the tribulation. During the tribulation God will send a strong delusion, and since we are filled with the Holy Ghost, HE cannot be deluded. I slao think I will very very few that will be savd during this time, because it will have to be someone who has not already heard a clear presentation of the gospel. I may be wrong but if someone has laready been given the gospel and rejected Christ, that their fate is sealed after the rapture.
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Post by benshelpmeet on Dec 1, 2007 14:18:56 GMT -5
2Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; What day is ''that day''?
There are two resurrections, the resurrection of the righteous, and the resurrection of the unrighteous. No where in scripture is the resurrection of the righteous divided into two separate events.Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. Paul only mentions one trump of God, just like Jesus. Paul and Jesus have the same end time theology.
Those who hold the Pre-Tribulation stand say, ''Jesus will come the first time, for His saints, and the second time with His saints,'' Thus placing the rapture before the tribulation. And yet others believe, He will come for those that sleep, and resurrect them and they which are alive and remain in the undivided first resurrection, known as the resurrection of the righteous.
Once the righteous are with Him, He will come back to pour out His wrath upon the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies. Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.Just as the children of Israel were kept in Egypt not from Egypt, so shall the children of God be kept through the end times.
This is why we must prepare ourselves ''spiritually'' for the trials that lay ahead.
Alot of chistians are comfortable with their compromising lives, and do not feel compelled to draw close to Christ. They are secure in the Pre-Trib teaching... that they will be raptured out before things get too bad...But will they?
Preparing myself, ~ sister Darlene ~
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Post by benshelpmeet on Dec 4, 2007 13:58:25 GMT -5
Amen Brother,
''Christianity today'' does not represent ''Christianity of the past''.
We are proud, fat off the pleasures and entertainments of this world, we do not have strong faith and trust in God, for the most part professing christians do not truly know who God is, and what He expects of the believer.
These verses describe the church today...but their are those who set themselves apart to seek, and to know Him, and to live for Him.Rev 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. 2Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.Php 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; 2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe 1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator. 1Pe 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. 1Pe 3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; Heb 13:3 Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body. Heb 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; This is a good verse! I like that. These are some interesting verses I came across...1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters 1Pe 3:17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. Blessings to you brother!
Living for Jesus the author and finisher of our faith, ~ sister Darlene ~
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Post by mandy on Dec 4, 2007 13:59:37 GMT -5
I see that a lot Bro. Anabean. then as soon as things go wrong God is blamed and a falling away/backsliding occurs. (I never understood why bad things were blamed on God and good things were attributed to "luck"). I think it may be in part (and this is just my opinion)to the sense of entitlement that is through out society today. I heard as song that addressed that way of thinking: "Who told us we'd be rescued, what has changed and why must we be saved?" As though we are entitled to immunity to anything bad that should happen. I read a book with different stories of christian martyrs from the early church to now in countries where christians are persecuted...for them to praise God in the midst of their suffering... They suffered , and their praising God through it all is an amazing witness to others.
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Post by anabean on Dec 5, 2007 10:08:18 GMT -5
Amen Sister Mandy. Was the book "Martrys Mirror"?
Thanks Sister Darlene for that post.
Anabean
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Post by Brother Ben on Oct 14, 2009 9:15:11 GMT -5
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jo 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. This is the purpose of prophecy in the life of a believer. Some go to seed on the topic and it is all they study, and I'm afraid to the deterament of their spiritual life. We are to: 2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Prophecy is just one of the topics. Bro. Ben
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