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Post by Brother Ben on Aug 25, 2004 13:38:28 GMT -5
 About the picture: These were two buddies serving our country in Afghanistan. The one being kissed was killed in the line of duty. Though I cannot vouche for their Christianity, I imagine that kiss is holy to the surviving friend. The word of God says: Rom 16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you. 1Cr 16:20 All the brethren greet you. Greet ye one another with an holy kiss. 2Cr 13:12 Greet one another with an holy kiss. 1Th 5:26 Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss. 1Pe 5:14 Greet ye one another with a kiss of charity. Peace [be] with you all that are in Christ Jesus. Amen. I've oft hear preachers say, "If it is repeated twice, it's established!" i.e., verily, verily, etc. So, since the Lord has put the holy kiss in the New Testament (you can't even pull the old, "That's Old Testament" clause) five times, is this something that the Lord actually wants us NT believers to practice. At first glance it goes (as men) against our bravado, our machoness, our ego, however, this is an issue I think we have buried in our ever crippling "American Christianity" we have shoved down our throat every day. This is a beautiful picture of the relationship that we have with one another because of the atonement of Christ. We are actually closer then flesh and blood because the blood that links us is the blood of Christ. Notice the intimacy Christ showed. Jhn 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Jhn 20:2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him. Jhn 21:20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? Jesus loved these men and they loved him. Jesus said, "By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." John 13:35 We all like I Cor. 13, the Charity or Love chapter. Being KJV users, we know that "charity" is a deeper word than "love." Charity is, as I heard one man of God put it, "Love with shoes on!" Peter said that we are to, "Greet ye one another with a kiss of charity." Are we willing to lay aside our pride and self will and obey scripture? This really hits right at the heart of our manly pride, doesn't it? Now I know you sister reading this don't have as much of a problem with this, but you need to think about the delimna men face when consider the "holy kiss." It is my prayer that the Lord Jesus will let us be used of Him to paint a picture for the world to marvel at and behold how we love Him and each other. I'm afraid we are so brash and hardened from day to day life, that we really are dead in the area of true brotherly love. I don't know about where you are, but here in the South, everyone claims to be saved. We call it the Bible Belt, some even say, "I live in the BUCKLE of the Bible Belt." Yet we see such carnality and wickedness by the supposed "saved" folks (that's between them and God.) Wouldn't it be nice if the people in our community said, "Those are REAL Christians, behold how they love one another!" When will you get to kiss your brother one last time? Just some things to think about. Doing my best to be transformed, transparent, and loving, Bro. Ben |
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Post by hszoo on Aug 25, 2004 14:01:32 GMT -5
Bro. Ben, I'm going to show this to Danny to see his reaction. He really does want to learn and grow in the Lord and this is something we've never talked about. Thank you so much for presenting this!
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Post by Eric on Aug 26, 2004 14:20:41 GMT -5
Well, I can't say this is something I ever considered before. I would initially say no ( in most cases). All things "required" of me today fall in my mind in the realm of christian service or obedience. I say no ( in most cases ) as none that I have ever met ( and I have attended churches in Ohio, Michigan, Virginia, Hawaii, Washington, and Minnesota) would be comfortable with the practice. With this, unlike covering or abstaining from this or that, it is required that another individual give you permission to greet them such. My obedience to God can never be contingent on another's approval. If none will allow me to kiss them whom shall I kiss? If I must kiss but none will allow me how shall I obey? I am not opposed to greeting with a Holy Kiss. It is a lovely idea. But I can't say I think it is a point of obedience. Good discussion, as always.
Eric
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Post by Brother Ben on Aug 26, 2004 15:07:20 GMT -5
Eric,
Again, we see that the problem is the examples we have today. Indeed like you we have been in churches all over the place and did not see this. However, what is needed is churches who are going to use the bible as their example, not Bro. So-in-so's church or denomination X. America is starving for clear biblical examples.
Ben
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Post by benshelpmeet on Aug 27, 2004 11:53:02 GMT -5
Dear brother Ben,
Love that picture! Great article! Our churches of today do not practice manny things Modesty, Godly music, Head covering, Foot washing,( this is another great and needed topic) Wives being keepers at home ( most preachers wives work outside the home and it's excepted.) The womb being Gods not the individules choice, the list could go on and on...... Our churches should practice ALL these things.
The Holy Kiss is no big deal you go to church a brother or sister walks up you greet them with a hug and a kiss on the cheek. This is still practiced in other countries. It's a brotherly gesture and it honors God. The Pilgrim Baptist will practice it the ones who are uncomfortable with it will get a hug. You just don't go around hugging and kissing everyone. It's done deciently and in order. If you walk up to a brother or a brother walks up to you then you greet him. ( The sisters greet the sisters the same way)
I have to admit it is a little uncomfortable for me to do, but it does bless my heart when I do it and I feel closer like real sisters. After all we will spend eternity together.
In the churches we've been in for the past 19 years have been a mixture of those churches who hug and those that don't. The ones that didn't the people were more superficial and I found that openness of heart and sharing struggles (Prayer request not just struggles, but needs) were not looked upon as ok. I found that alot of people were having to save face and be more to themselves about real life issues. Church was not a place where the Saints of God had openness and genuine love tward oneanother it was not a place were you could be transparent and grow in love one tward oneanother it's just where you go to church together.
Now on the other hand the churches that practiced hugging (men would even hug men) It wasn't said from the pulpit that we hug at this church, and it wasn't stated in there doctrines and bylaws, but the members were warm vibrant, open, loving, careing christians and they HUGGED! When a member had a prayer need they prayed the sweetest prayers( the other churches prayed too, but their prayers were more matter of a fact) I felt genuine love in the hugging churches. I'm a hugger by nature I don't go around hugging every one but I love people and it is just a natural expression of Love. ( I don't hugg men) I do hug my husband and sons. ( even my daddy, my brothers, and brother inlaws when we rarely see them) My husband has been a preacher for 16 years now and he's preached in alot of differant churches. I have felt uncomfortable hugging in some churches. And when I'm hugged unexpectedly I am blessed and feel a real christian bond.
The Holy kiss is just added on with the hugg and I've even done this in our baptist churches, when I feel Gods prompting.( With good results I might add. ) Now for men I can see this might feel more uncomfortable, but it's worth praying about. Maybe just start by greeting real close christian brothers with a hugg. It's just a suggestion.
I hope this has been a help and a blessing to someone.
For precious souls, ~ Darlene ~
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Post by preachit on Sept 30, 2004 7:21:46 GMT -5
NO, not in this culture,
and it IS a cultural thing!
In their culture feet got dusty, needed washing,
mine, and yours don't.
That GOD stooped to wash the feet of men was the point,
twas symbolic in a culture that WASHED feet!
Ye and me are WASHED in the BLOOD!
And in OUR culture we shake hands,
Ye and me are to AVOID appearances of evil!
1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
Which IS what is thought of in this culture when two men are seen kissing!
BTW, what makes you think PICTURES of Jesus Christ are OK?
I don't see HIS DIETY in that pic, thus IT'S A LIE!
I don't know WHAT HE LOOKED LIKE, nor do you,
thus that pic is a LIE!!
THIS is our ONLY description of Him, from which NO picture could be drawn,
Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Since this is true of Jesus,
Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
THIS APPLIES,
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,
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or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above,
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or that is in the earth beneath,
or that is in the water under the earth:
AND FINALLY, God gave us a WORD book, not a picture book.
We walk by FAITH NOT BY SIGHT!
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Post by Brother Ben on Sept 30, 2004 12:00:16 GMT -5
Dear friend PreachIt,
My question is who is or was the appointed board that determined just what is and is not cultural? If you are going to use that expanation, then you need to use it for every New Testament practice. Are you willing to let your church/christian life practices be put under such scrutiny?
I oft hear Baptist preachers speak of obeying the N.T. commands. I hear them say, if it says do something, God expects you to do it, i.e., "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" Matt 28:19 This is a N.T. commandment, there is no room for error here. Likewise, the scripture says, "Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss." I Thess. 5:26 It does not say if your culture allows it.
The Bible says, "For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them." John 13:15-17
I don't claim to be a great theologian, but I do know how to obey simple scriptures. We are only obeying when the Lord gave us an example and told us we'd be happy if we did it.
Amen! I agree, praise God that is our common ground, because we aren't going to agree on everything. Then again, we don't have to.
Indeed, but ALL of it applies. Have you or your children ever drawn a picture of Jesus, angels, or God? Mine have. Once again, if you are going to use this passage, us ALL of it. Do not ever, nor let your children make drawings of "...that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."
Never, never draw a bird, a tree, a mountain, a dog, a man or woman, nor a fish, a whale, a shark, etc. These things are in the earth and in the water under the earth. I'm sorry, this verse is talking about image worship. Idolatry is the worship of images, statues, sculptures, etc. I never told anyone to worship or venerate the painting above.
I agree, God gave us a book, and that we walk by faith. However, that same book tells me, "All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" II Tim. 3:16
This same book tells me in this book full of word pictures, that my life is to be a picture and a book, "Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:" II Cor 3:2
You might like to draw your picture of Jesus one way, and I another. I want people to know the gentle, lovely, patient, cleansing nature of Jesus, as well as his justice, verity, and manliness.
For Christ and souls,
Bro. Ben
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Rejoiceevermore
Member
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 1 Tim. 2:5
Posts: 67
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Post by Rejoiceevermore on Feb 10, 2005 23:21:48 GMT -5
Dear Brother Ben, My husband encouraged me to respond to your article. Our computer won't let us see the picture, but your article is great. This subject never been strange to me. I grew up in a church where brothers in Christ kissed each other on the lips and sisters in Christ kissed each other on the lips. It is practiced in Russian and Ukranian Baptist churches. When we are born again and have the mind of Christ then it's not a strange act, but if our minds polluted by the world then we are going to reject the scripture from Gods Holy Book: "Greet one another with an holy kiss" 2Cor. 13:12. I think all Christians should greet one another with an holy kiss. It's a blessing indeed. I never heard godly people talk evil about it or think wrong about it. It was always practised and still practised in a lot of Russian churches and it is Holy. May we walk in His righteousness. "Be ye holy; for I am holy" 1 Peter 1:16 Thank you Brother Ben for your stand. Serving Him with joy, Amy  |
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Post by will on Apr 26, 2005 17:52:42 GMT -5
I believe in practicing the Holy Kiss. In one of the churches I regularly go to(I'm a member of a very liberal Mennonite church, but I'm looking for a more conservative church) they practice the Holy Kiss. They do so by a closed mouth kiss on the lips. Another local Mennonite church chooses to kiss on the cheek.
And a note on the cultural objection to foot washing...it was a cultural custom to wash the feet BEFORE eating the meal. Not after. Christ washed His disciples feet after the meal, and then commanded to follow these things. Doesn't sound like He was performing a cultural task.
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Post by Brother Ben on Apr 28, 2005 20:55:32 GMT -5
Amen, excellent point on the foot washing. I have been blessed with receiving and giving the holy kiss (on the cheek) only among plain brethren. We Baptists have something to learn. My wife and I always feel challenged when we have been around our plain brethren. We visisted some Mennonite friends last week and Darlene said to the sister (about 15 years her senior,) "We become aware of our needs when we visit ya'll." With humility the sister said, "I have needs too." That is so sweet.
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Post by arabianlights on Oct 25, 2006 9:59:33 GMT -5
Often Paul and the other apostles would give instructions in their letters such as (in paraphrase), "Bring my coat with you", "After you read this letter give it to the Laodecians", "Greet Aquilla for me", "Timothy sends greetings".... etc. These commands were directed to specific people or congregations and do not have relevence to us today. My question is, how do we know that the injunction "Greet the brethren with a holy kiss" was not a specific greeting from Paul to that church. Such as when I sign a letter to my mother with the injunction, "Hug daddy for me!" Since it was very cultural (and still is) in eastern countries for men to greet each other with a kiss on the cheek, it would be logical for Paul to ask them to greet eachother in this manner on his behalf. These are just some rambling thoughts... I'm not really opposed to the idea itself. Having grown up in Arabia, I am very comfortable with men kissing men on the cheek and holding hands, etc. Women always kissed eachother on the cheek or hand as well. It was no big deal, just a part of the culture. Hope I'm not out of line posting this on the Brethren's forum.  -Evie |
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Post by Brother Ben on Oct 25, 2006 13:13:14 GMT -5
Rom 16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.
The above text tells how we are to salute one another, "...with an holy kiss." Furthermore it tells who is supposed to be practicing this salutation, "The churches of Christ..."
1Th 5:26 Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss.
Who is included in the group that should receive a holy kiss? All the brethren.
The holy kiss followed the New Testament church throughout church history, though not everyone has practiced or obeyed it.
In fact, one religious encyclopedia states, "Considerable use has been made of the kiss as a symbol of love and fellowship in the history of the Christian church. It was not the same as the common kiss among friends in the Roman world, nor the common Jewish salutation among friends, for it was a 'holy' kiss observed only among the members of the church".
In his description of the worship service of the churches in the second century, Justin Martyr stated, "Then let the men apart, and the women apart, salute each other with a kiss in the Lord".
Any objective outside observer of the holy kiss, viewing it as practiced in the Apostolic Christian Church, can readily admit that it is done with the utmost discretion. It is practiced by normal people under very orderly circumstances, and the reverence and esteem with which it is done truly brings glory to God and reflects the group's humble intentions of obeying in full the "whole counsel of God".
Taken from an article entitled, 'the Holy Kiss.'
I hope this additional info was helpful.
Bro. Ben
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Post by mavmin on Nov 13, 2006 14:33:48 GMT -5
I have had a few men kiss me on the cheek. One was a Black man at a place where I was teaching a 12 Step program. Currently, I have an older man that does it and I accept it as a fatherly kiss. Some of my younger sisters will give me an Uncle or Grandfatherly and some of the other women has kissed me now and then like a Brother or Son kiss. I don't kiss as a greeting but I have kissed a few folks that needed the ecouragment or as if they were my Mother or daugther. That is a Holy Kiss and is as much for today and maybe more so than ever.
We hug in our church and that is our usual form of "holy kiss." Mennonites still Holy Kiss and since you have adopted the headcovering adopting the Holy Kiss should not be a hard thing to do. It is a part of biblical culture. Our culture should be like theirs as much as possible. Most of what we have learned is not from a holy culture. We don't practice a lot of things that we should but that doesn't make it right.
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Post by dragonfly on Nov 13, 2006 23:10:01 GMT -5
I reciently brought this topic up to some baptist friends of mine, and boy oh boy, they didn't really care for it one bit. It now makes me uncomfortable to even try it. It's a shame, but God is bigger than my being uncomfortableness. thank you so much for this topic..
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Post by prv31wife on Nov 15, 2006 15:38:19 GMT -5
I was blessed in July when we visited a Conservative Mennonite Church and they were practicing the holy kiss. It was so neat to see big burly guys(my husband is a big burly guy  giving each other kisses on the cheek. |
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giving each other kisses on the cheek.