I need some advice on church selection (long)

[hollydawnr]

DH and I attended a new church last week, an IFB church that's somewhat new but pretty close to home. On most of the issues, I like their doctrine (KJV only, saved by grace, traditional marriage, etc.). We invited the pastor over this week to talk to him and just get some more information about the church and about his personal beliefs.

Near the end of the conversation, I mentioned my headcovering. I cover (that's obvious), and I just wanted to make sure that it wouldn't present a problem if our family continued attending that church. To be honest, I had a few reservations about his response to that question.

First off, he said that he believes that the instructions in I Cor. 11 were intended for the local body of believers in Corinth, because an uncovered head on a woman was a cultural affront. Let me say that I absolutely DETEST this argument for the following reasons:
1)If that's true, then does the rest of I Cor. apply to modern believers?
2)It's NOT true--you can see pictures of first-century Greeks and Romans and they almost NEVER wore a headcovering UNLESS they were Christians, so it wasn't a "cultural affront".
3)Paul didn't say, "Cover your heads so you don't offend your non-believing townspeople." He said, "Cover your heads as a sign of your submission to your husband AND because of the angels AND because it is fitting and proper to do so." He gave three excellent reasons to cover, and none of those have anything to do with "culture".
4)Church leaders throughout history have always (until the early-mid 1900's, at least) viewed this passage as an instruction to a woman to cover her head. Even the Scofield Reference Bible's commentary notes state as much! From Tertullian to Martin Luther to John Wesley: For 1800 years of church history, it was understood what this passage meant.

So my first concern is that his opinion on this is flat wrong. In my last church (we had to leave because we moved), the pastor told my husband, "I've always believed that a woman's hair is her covering. But if your wife feels convicted of the need to wear a headcovering, I will support her 110%." At least the pastor there had considered and studied the passage. While his opinions may have differed with mine, I at least felt that they were well-reasoned and had been prayerfully considered. Additionally, our old pastor DID support me fully on my conviction (more on that in a minute).

I am truly very concerned about his opinion on this matter, because it seems to me that he is simply parrotting what his mentor/Bible college teacher/wife/father told him. I don't feel that he has seriously studied or considered the matter. A cursory glance at the cultural fashions of the early Christian era would tell him that headcovering was NOT a cultural norm. I guess I just feel that a pastor should be able to do some research into this topic, and I don't feel that he has ever really bothered to research it. And my concern there is that he presented an ill-informed and poorly reasoned argument as though it were absolutely true. I would rather have him say, "You know, to be honest, I haven't really done a lot of research into that topic. Could you give me some time to look into it and get back to you?"

The second thing he said that made me leery is that he said that if, by covering, I tried to sow dissension in the church, he might have to discuss it with my husband. Now I can agree that it's not right for me to accost an uncovered woman and start preaching to her about the virtue of the headcovering. But I'm really somewhat concerned. I know that if we continue attending there, it will only be a matter of time before someone asks me why I wear a headcovering. If I simply show her the passage I'm getting my instruction from and answer her objections, and if it upsets her and she goes to the pastor, will I be blamed for "sowing dissension"? So I'm really very nervous about that. What if someone is simply offended by me wearing my covering and takes that to the pastor? I guess I'm really just worried that the pastor will NOT support my convictions, if it really comes down to it.

There is no IFB church in the entire Metro area that actually TEACHES headcovering. I'm okay with that. I don't mind being the only covered female in the congregation. But I really don't know what to make of the pastor's responses to my query. In all other aspects, I think it's a wonderful church. I agree with the doctrine on all the major points, and I do like the pastor and the other members.

Am I making too much of this one issue? I guess that what worries me is, if he's willing to bow to "conventional wisdom" on THIS matter, what's to keep him from doing it on more important matters?

One more question: For those of you who are in a similar situation (you can't find a Baptist church that's conservative enough for you), do you find a church to attend with but not join? Do you simply home-church? How do you handle such matters? I've read somewhere in the Bible that it says, "Forsake not the assembling of yourselves together." How does that correspond with "Be not unequally yoked"?

I asked these same questions to my husband, and he told me to seek opinions from some of you. He wants me to share your opinions with him so that he can make a decision.

Thanks in advance!

[benshelpmeet]

Dearest Holly,

We have faced this same thing over the past 6 years. My husband was an Ind. Fund. Preacher Can you imagine what our preacher friends thought and still think.

We no longer can attend Baptist churches. There is too much sin and compromise in the churches even in the pastors life. We have lived here in Tn for 10 years and have searched high and low and have not found one. The churches have just gotten worse even the semi strong ones.

We attend a born again, KJV, ex- Amish plain church we drive 2 hours and 15 min to get there, it makes for a long Sunday. We wanted to start a Head covering Baptist church (thats why we started this site 2 years ago and had a camp meeting last fall) to see if anyone was interested, but nothing came together so we gave up the crazy idea of trying to start a head covering Baptist church...no such creature. We believe in godly living, witnessing, KJV, proper music beat, modesty, head covering, quiver full, homeschooling, wives being keepers at home etc... It's hard finding any IFB church like that. We have come to the conclusion that were not IFB. We are Bible believing, bible practicing, born again christians, We believe in fellowshipping with like minded believers. So we drive 2 hours and 15 min to fellowship with like believers. Were moving closer but will still have to drive 55 min.

Home church is only good if you have families and a man of God.

I hope this has been of some help to you dear one...I will pray.

Love, ~ sister Darlene ~

I'm glad your here.

[Deleted]

Hollydawnr,
I am with you in being disappointed about the IFB that I am currently attending because of the answer I got from the pastor when I emailed him to ask him about modest dressing and head covering. Like you, I feel like he was parroting something he learned along the way, and didn't research the matter himself. I have not asked him about joining, so I don't know if he's afraid that I will sow dissension, as your pastor said. Here is the answer he gave me:

"So glad to have you coming to our church to visit. As to some of your questions – I see you have searched a lot on the internet on the matter of women’s dress. As you probably already realize, our most important place of study on standards is the Word of God. Also, on the internet, you are going to get a wide variety of views and interpretations. The Bible is clear that God wants us to have a distinction in our dress between the sexes. How far do we go with that? Well, it is important to draw a line somewhere and uphold God’s desire. But, we can also take it too far. It is hard to be consistent in every detail. For example, does that mean we have to use even different material our clothes are made of? Of course not. Another important factor that helps determine the standard we should set that upholds God’s desire is the present day culture. Keep in mind that principles for dress standards in the Bible include not only the distinction of the sexes, but also modesty and appropriateness. For example, a dress on a woman in some activities is not always modest. As to shoes – that is a hard one and not usually a concern among Christians and the world as to whether we are distinct in every kind of shoe we wear. Obviously some are distinct. You will not find me or my sons wearing high heals!!



As to hair covering. The principle in I Corinthians 11 is the principle of distinction between males and females. In their culture at the time of the writing of I Cor., the distinction was a head dress of material that covered the head as well as long hair. In our culture, it is much different. I don’t believe the Bible is commanding our women today to cover their heads with material. But, I do believe that there are hair styles today in our culture that distinctly separate the man and the woman – so that determines our standard. Personally, I prefer men to have their hair short and off the collar and ears to distinctly show they are men. Then, I prefer women to have hair that is styled in a way or at least long enough that shows they are women. I do not like real short hair cut off the ears and way above the neck on women – looking like a man. I hope this helps."

My question to his answer about long hair is, since when does long hair differentiate between the sexes? Since the sixties some men have longer hair than I've ever had. Seems to me, the head covering may be the one way we have to distinguish between the sexes. Even dresses don't do it sometimes, what with more and more men (?) wearing them. We even had a senior boy at the high school here a couple of years ago wearing dresses to school, and getting himself kicked out of the prom because he changed into a dress during the dance. Other than the knit cap, and the bandannas that some men wear, our head coverings are fairly safe. Not too many men wear veils. So, besides our veils being the way we show our submission to God's rule of headship, they may become the only way to be sure that people know we are women!!
And, just for the record, yes, I did go to the internet to research, but I also went to the KJB, not to mention checking the Greek for myself.
Love,
Linda

[Brother Randy]

I would just like to comment a little on this. Over the coarse of time we have come to the say postion as Bro Ben and Sister Darlene.

I grow up in a IFB church , but after becoming very disheartened in what I saw going on , I was ever a deacon a couple of times, I could no long continue on there, After my wife and I got married we tried the Assembly of God Church , that is what she grow up in, but also saw thigs we could no longer agree with there neither. And she had also started covering too, 8 years now. So we looked else where , finally ending up going to a Mennonite Church 35 miles away from us. We agree mostly with them but not completely. So I do understand the Smiths position. We need to be real christians first following after Christ, and not be so concerned about being Baptist , Mennonites or whatever. And seeking out like minded believer to fellowship with. It is one of the reason I continue on here.

Also I would like to say that it is very sad that a lot of men/husbands don't get ahold of the teaching of head covering. And hold back the sisters from being blessed by following it. I studied it out and taught it to my wife. It and mosted dress has become so much a part of her that she does not think of doing any other way.


Bro Randy

[Brother Ben]

Sister Holly,
I understand your delemna, and I wish there was a larger head covering movement among IFB churches. I know the movement is growing, but we are the pioneers among baptist peers (no rhyme intended.)

Because of sin and the downward pull of sin toward carnality, the covering issue probably never will grow much among IFB churches. Just a few that cover here and there. For the most part, you will have to pay the price for this conviction. Like your other pastor that was 110% behind you, even though he didn't see it that way, there are some good men that are balanced and confident in their faith and practice and are not threatened by a covering sister. However, there are alot of preachers that are actually very shallow and are afraid to confront an issue like this because they just might be wrong.

I don't want you to assume a persecution complex, yet at the same time, welcome to the Martyrs Mirror. Eccliasticle persecution has been as bad or worse than pagan persecution throughout church history. Do we think some of our beloved (Christian) groups wouldn't do the same? Sin blinds the eye to truth and drives a wedge between blood-bought believers. This is the work of Satan, sower or discord.

This is a truth that caused us to open our hearts to some brethren that I would have condemned before because they weren't down to the smallest detail the same as we were. I am not condoning fellowship with those that are in gross compromise to sin and carnality, but where there is agreement on the major themes.

As sister Darlene mentioned above we have been in serious contact with a church made up of people who for the most part are from an Amish background. I've known about this group for several years, but didn't chech them out because of what I had heard. My error. We finally went for a visit and were so thoroughly blessed. If you were to close your eyes, you wouldn't know where you were because the message of salvation by grace through faith and NO confidence in the flesh or the works of man, was loud and clear. Then you look around and see these plain brethren. It was a blessing.

If you can fellowship in an IFB church and have peace with the pastor and the brethren, stay. If you are going to suffer at the hands of those who don't understand, and worse, WON'T be informed, then you need to seriously seek the mind of the Lord. But, be encouraged because the pure, sweet, blood-bought church of the Living God is alive and well in America, you just have to seek it like a treasure!

Bro. Ben

[hollydawnr]

It's interesting that you've been fellowshipping with an Amish group. Yesterday in the fabric store, I saw a covered woman (and that's rare in Arizona--I'd see that a lot in Kansas and especially North Dakota). We got to talking, and she invited me to her church (She's Holdeman Mennonite). DH and I attended a Holdeman church for awhile in North Dakota before we found the Baptist church, and I really love the Holdemans, even though I don't agree with them on some doctrine. I think that they're really a wonderful group and very friendly.

The truth is that I think they probably are closer to Biblical practice than some of the IFB churches we've attended... It's hard for some to believe, but we found that they truly didn't judge non-members of their church family. There was a gypsy family that would sometimes attend the Holdeman church in North Dakota, and the Holdemans were just as friendly and accepting of them as they would be of each other. That said, they DID have some very strict rules for those who WERE Holdemans.

I don't know if we're going to find an IFB church that we can agree with, but I know there are some issues that we disagree with the Holdemans on. I seriously doubt that we would ever actually BECOME Mennonites, but they are a great group to fellowship with. I don't know for sure what DH wants to do, but I'll keep you posted on our quest. Thanks for your understanding and advice.

[Donna]

Concerning fellowshipping with like believers.... Many churches tht I have attended, but not been a member of, don't let you participate in the different ministries of the church unless you are a member (such as sing in the choir, go door knocking, visitation etc) I have even heard, although not experienced, that there are some that make you get baptized again into their particular church, and won't let you participate in communion unless you are a member. I have especially missed partaking of communion....although that is usually because it is celebrated during the evening service and we usually only attend the morning service.

OOPS, there I go again. I tend to ramble.

What is the solution. Do you stay with a church, even though there may be major differences OR do you just attend but not join and be what is commonly called a pew warmer?

I want to serve my Lord, but as a woman with a resistant husband (may be saved but severely backslidden -- only God truly knows) what are my options? How can I serve?

Donna

[hollydawnr]

donna said:

Concerning fellowshipping with like believers.... Many churches tht I have attended, but not been a member of, don't let you participate in the different ministries of the church unless you are a member (such as sing in the choir, go door knocking, visitation etc) I have even heard, although not experienced, that there are some that make you get baptized again into their particular church, and won't let you participate in communion unless you are a member.

What is the solution. Do you stay with a church, even though there may be major differences OR do you just attend but not join and be what is commonly called a pew warmer?

Donna

I know that some churches will not let you participate or take communion if you're not a member of THEIR church. But doesn't the passage warning you not to be unequally yoked apply to churches as well as marriages? To me, joining a church is a BIG deal--second only to marriage in importance. When you actually "join" a church, don't you become kind of yoked with them? Personally, I wouldn't want to join a church unless I felt 100% comfortable with their doctrine.

That said, is it wrong to be a "pew warmer"? Is it wrong to habitually have fellowship with a church with no intention of joining?

[Brother Ben]

I wouldn't want to join a church unless I felt 100% comfortable with their doctrine.

That said, is it wrong to be a "pew warmer"? Is it wrong to habitually have fellowship with a church with no intention of joining?

There a literally thousands of churches that I am in 100% agreement with their doctrine, but it is their practice that bothers me. Hear this quote

"What good is it to be gun barrel straight, and twice as empty?"

I heard that from a good preacher brother once. Do you see what I am talking about. Question: Which is best good doctrine and bad pracitice or questionable doctrines and good practice? The answer is both are wrong. So what is one to do? You seek the Lord and you do what is the closest thing to honoring God.

We have been over and over and over this issue a thousand times. If your doctrine does not change your life, then you need to examine your doctrine. (double shocker.) I know that we are not saved by works. I know what the doctrine of justification by faith is and how it applies in the life of a believer. Having said that, we have been greived that there is so much rampant, blatant intentional brazen (how is that for description) sin and carnality in the IFB churches.

It is not because their doctrine is wrong, or their preacher is wicked, it is because our IFB churches have left off the need to soberly apply scripture to our lives and commit it to memory! Not to mention the need to urgent prayer.

You cannot "do" IFBism and it work. You have to have intimate fellowship with Christ. He is the answer to all weak groups, creeds, and etc.

Jhn 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

Jhn 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Jhn 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

What a descriptive passage. I believe this is the matter at hand. There needs to be some preachers that are bold enough to tell people that if they flirt with carnality, you know, they like their American Idol, and Soft Rock, and the list goes on and on, that they are either in sin and need to repent, or are not saved.

We are the generation that is like the frog steeping in a warm pot. Lithargy has set in and sin is not the malignant, devouring, sinister, evil that it real is, it is just, "the way things are."

I know this is the end time, but we need to get some holy gumpshon and throw a fit for the glory of God and do something about it. Can I change my world or my church? No, but I can live holy and right with God and be a burning and a shining light.

If I can stay (by the leadership of God) and make a difference in my church, then stay and do it, but if they are not going to change and their carnal wicked (maybe lost) member are going to be a creeping cancer to you, your spouse, and your beloved children take them and run like you are running from the devil himself.

Then what? Pray, pray, and pray again, and look for those who trying to honor God and fellowship with them. God is real, He can guide. There may be some wilderness wandering, but the obedient didn't perish in the desert, only the disobedient.

Hang in there, dear brethren. We are all in the fight. Some are blessed with a good church environment. Praise the Lord. But, some of you are going to have to fellowship with Christ and your family and with other believers as God permits. Encourage yourself in the Lord.

Well, I better get back to work now.

Bro. Ben