Why we're premillennial

[Brother Ben]

As some of you may have noticed our friend and board member Ian, (covenanter,) has challenged us to consider the amillennial view of the one thousand year period spoken of in scripture.

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Again, to refresh your memory, (and I hope this is accurate,) amillennialism is defined as follows:

Amillennialism is a theological view concerning the 1000-year reign of Jesus Christ that is mentioned in Revelation 20:1–6. In particular, Amillennialism is the perspective that there will not be a future literal 1000-year reign of Christ upon the earth. The inseparable Latin prefix a means “no” and the term “millennium” is Latin for “1000 years.” Thus, Amillennialism literally means “no 1000 years.”

Furthermore:

In regard to the end times, Amillennialism affirms the following chronological scenario:

• Christ is now ruling in His kingdom while Satan is bound from deceiving the nations.
  
• Tribulation is experienced in the present age even though Christ is ruling.
  
• Jesus will return again to earth.
  
• After Jesus returns there will be a general bodily resurrection of all the righteous people and a general judgment of all unbelievers.
  
• The Eternal Kingdom will begin.
  

It must be noted that almost all quotes by the early church (the first 300 years,) were premillennial in thier scope. Not until Origen (185-254,) did the amillennial teaching begin because he prefered an allagorical interpretation as opposed to a literal.

Eusebius (270-340), an associate of the emperor Constantine, viewed Constantine’s reign as the Messianic banquet, and he held to anti-premillennial views. Tyconius, an African Donatist of the fourth century, was one of the earliest theologians to challenge Premillennialism. He rejected the eschatological and futuristic view of Revelation 20. Instead, he said that the millennium was being fulfilled in the present age and that the 1000 years mentioned was not a literal 1000 years. Tyconius also viewed the first resurrection of Revelation 20:4 as a spiritual resurrection which was the new birth.

Augustine (354-430), who is often referred to as the ‘Father of Amillennialism,’ popularized the views of Tyconius. Augustine abandoned Premillennialism because of what he considered to be the excesses and carnalities of this view. He also interpreted Mark 3:27 to be a present binding of Satan. Augustine was the first to identify the Catholic Church in its visible form with the kingdom of God. For him, the millennial rule of Christ was taking place in and through the church, including its sacraments and offices. His book, City of God, was significant in the promotion and acceptance of Amillennialism.

Augustine’s Amillennialism quickly became the accepted view of the church. It became so accepted that the Council of Ephesus (431) condemned the premillennial view as superstitious. Amillennialism soon became the prevailing doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church and was later adopted by most of the Protestant Reformers including Martin Luther and John Calvin (some Anabaptists held to Premillennialism).

While Premillennialism has experienced a great resurgence in the last 200 hundred years, Amillennialism is widely held by many Christian denominations. It is the official position of the Roman Catholic Church and is held by many Lutherans and those in the Reformed tradition.

Quotes in brown are completely from the work, 'What is Amillennialism?' by Michael J. Vlach, Ph.D.

As I have said in the past, when the plain sense makes common sense, seek no other sense. The fact that amillennialism comes from Origen, Augustine, and the Roman Catholic Church should give us a "heads up." The early church saw the Revelation just as it is, a collection of visions and literal events. By nature of verbage, the description of the millenniam appears literal. Notice:

Rev 20:1 ¶ And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Rev 20:4 ¶ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:7 ¶ And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Notice the chronological nature of these phrases:

• a thousand years
  
• till the thousand years should be fulfilled
  
• after that he must be loosed a little season
  
• and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years
  
• But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished
  
• And when the thousand years are expired
  

This is not an undescribed era, but a literal time with detailed events. One can make an allagorical interpretation, but is not consistent with the hermatutics of the first 300 years of church history.

No one denies the spiritual realm of the kingdom of God during the church age. Jesus is the King of kings and the Lord of lords. However, there is a time when he will literally sit on the throne of David and rule.

Luke 22:29 and 30 is a passage in which Christ made a promise to His disciples at the Last Supper just before His death on the cross:

Luk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
Luk 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Christ was referring not to His spiritual kingdom but to the literal kingdom that will be a fulfillment of God’s unconditional promises to His Chosen People, the Jews. Again, these promises have yet to be fulfilled. We know He was not talking about His spiritual kingdom, because in that kingdom there will be neither Jews nor Gentiles, but all one in Christ (Galatians 3:28).

John's mother was not speaking of a spiritual kingdom when she asked:

Mat 20:21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.

The literal kingdom of Christ was promised in the writings of Jeremiah:

Jer 23:5 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this [is] his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

This is a promise, and it has yet to come to pass. If prophetic passages like these do not mean Christ’s millennial (1,000-year) reign, they are meaningless.

So, here are some of my thoughts and collected ideas about the millennium.

[Deleted]

Oct 21, 2009 12:49:16 GMT -5 Brother Ben said:

As some of you may have noticed our friend and board member Ian, (covenanter,) has challenged us to consider the amillennial view of the one thousand year period spoken of in scripture.

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Again, to refresh your memory, (and I hope this is accurate,) amillennialism is defined as follows:

Amillennialism is a theological view concerning the 1000-year reign of Jesus Christ that is mentioned in Revelation 20:1–6. In particular, Amillennialism is the perspective that there will not be a future literal 1000-year reign of Christ upon the earth. The inseparable Latin prefix a means “no” and the term “millennium” is Latin for “1000 years.” Thus, Amillennialism literally means “no 1000 years.”

That etymological definition is misleading. The amil understanding is that the present age is the prophesied millennium. A better term would be "present millennialism." After all, God's time scale for his revealed plans is:

Mat 24:36 ¶ But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

A key feature of my understanding is that the Book of Revelation is in the Bible & part of it, & must be - can only be - properly understood by the time-honoured method of comparing Scripture with Scripture to build up an understanding.

Furthermore:

In regard to the end times, Amillennialism affirms the following chronological scenario:

• Christ is now ruling in His kingdom while Satan is bound from deceiving the nations.

Mar 3:27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

Jhn 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

[/li][li]Tribulation is experienced in the present age even though Christ is ruling. [/quote]
"The tribulation" has been magnified into a future "end times" doctrine. Jesus taught it as an unrepeatable event relating to the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

[/li][li]Jesus will return again to earth.
[/li][li]After Jesus returns there will be a general bodily resurrection of all the righteous people and a general judgment of all unbelievers.

[/li][li]The Eternal Kingdom will begin.
[/li][/ul]
[/color][/quote]
Agreed - Amen - Hallelujah! The "eternal Kingdom" aka the New Heaven & the New Earth.

It must be noted that almost all quotes by the early church (the first 300 years,) were premillennial in thier scope. Not until Origen (185-254,) did the amillennial teaching begin because he prefered an allagorical interpretation as opposed to a literal.

Eusebius (270-340), an associate of the emperor Constantine, viewed Constantine’s reign as the Messianic banquet, and he held to anti-premillennial views. Tyconius, an African Donatist of the fourth century, was one of the earliest theologians to challenge Premillennialism. He rejected the eschatological and futuristic view of Revelation 20. Instead, he said that the millennium was being fulfilled in the present age and that the 1000 years mentioned was not a literal 1000 years. Tyconius also viewed the first resurrection of Revelation 20:4 as a spiritual resurrection which was the new birth.

Probably the earliest of post Apostolic writers who could be claimed as premil writings is Barnabas. His teaching is of a perfect 1000 years, not the scenario taught by today's premils of a time of ever increasing rebellion even though under the direct & personal rule of Jesus. He expected a perfect "Sabbath" that moved seemlessly into eternity.

Chapter XV. The false and the true Sabbath.
Further, [1654] also, it is written concerning the Sabbath in the Decalogue which [the Lord] spoke, face to face, to Moses on Mount Sinai, "And sanctify ye the Sabbath of the Lord with clean hands and a pure heart." [1655] And He says in another place, "If my sons keep the Sabbath, then will I cause my mercy to rest upon them." [1656] The Sabbath is mentioned at the beginning of the creation [thus]: "And God made in six days the works of His hands, and made an end on the seventh day, and rested on it, and sanctified it." [1657] Attend, my children, to the meaning of this expression, "He finished in six days." This implieth that the Lord will finish all things in six thousand years, for a day is [1658] with Him a thousand years. And He Himself testifieth, [1659] saying, "Behold, to-day [1660] will be as a thousand years." [1661] Therefore, my children, in six days, that is, in six thousand years, all things will be finished. "And He rested on the seventh day." This meaneth: when His Son, coming [again], shall destroy the time of the wicked man, [1662] and judge the ungodly, and change the-sun, and the moon, [1663] and the stars, then shall He truly rest on the seventh day. Moreover, He says, "Thou shalt sanctify it with pure hands and a pure heart." If, therefore, any one can now sanctify the day which God hath sanctified, except he is pure in heart in all things, [1664] we are deceived. [1665] Behold, therefore: [1666] certainly then one properly resting sanctifies it, when we ourselves, having received the promise, wickedness no longer existing, and all things having been made new by the Lord, shall be able to work righteousness. [1667] Then we shall be able to sanctify it, having been first sanctified ourselves. [1668] Further, He says to them, "Your new moons and your Sabbath I cannot endure." [1669] Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead. [1670] And [1671] when He had manifested Himself, He ascended into the heavens.

Augustine (354-430), who is often referred to as the ‘Father of Amillennialism,’ popularized the views of Tyconius. Augustine abandoned Premillennialism because of what he considered to be the excesses and carnalities of this view. He also interpreted Mark 3:27 to be a present binding of Satan. Augustine was the first to identify the Catholic Church in its visible form with the kingdom of God. For him, the millennial rule of Christ was taking place in and through the church, including its sacraments and offices. His book, City of God, was significant in the promotion and acceptance of Amillennialism.

Augustine’s Amillennialism quickly became the accepted view of the church. It became so accepted that the Council of Ephesus (431) condemned the premillennial view as superstitious. Amillennialism soon became the prevailing doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church and was later adopted by most of the Protestant Reformers including Martin Luther and John Calvin (some Anabaptists held to Premillennialism).

While Premillennialism has experienced a great resurgence in the last 200 hundred years, Amillennialism is widely held by many Christian denominations. It is the official position of the Roman Catholic Church and is held by many Lutherans and those in the Reformed tradition.

[/color]

Quotes in brown are completely from the work, 'What is Amillennialism?' by Michael J. Vlach, Ph..D.

As I have said in the past, when the plain sense makes common sense, seek no other sense. The fact that amillennialism comes from Origen, Augustine, and the Roman Catholic Church should give us a "heads up."
[/quote]
We are looking at Scripture teaching. There are plenty of strange interpretations down the ages. The RCs teach the trinity. Does that discredit the doctrine?

Barnabas' millennium is not an interpretation of Rev. 20, nor does it resemble today's teaching. I have often heard premils say, "It must be noted that almost all quotes by the early church (the first 300 years,) were premillennial in thier scope." What I have not seen is specific quotes that support the scenario of modern premils.

More later.

[Deleted]

Many amils hold to the historical interpretation of Revelation, understanding it to have been written in the 90s & describing the future "history" until the return of Christ. I held that view until a few years ago. I have preached right through Revelation, relating the prophecies to OT & other NT prophecy. That led me to a change of viewpoint.

I now would disagree after a lot of further study. I hold to a Neronic date, before AD 70. The prophecies of Revelation can be understood in terms of the Lord's Olivet prophecies, & Paul's 2nd letters to the Thessalonians. Clearly the temple of God was then standing.

A key question is the date of Revelation - whether during Nero's persecutions or Domitian's. The late date relies largely on a late & ambiguous translation of Irenaeus. Either John or his vision was seen in the days of Domitian. Internal evidence indicates that both Jerusalem & the temple were still standing. (Rev. 11)

That information is capable of literal information, though the city & events are declared to be "spiritual." The Lord made it very clear that the two witnesses against Israel were Moses & the Prophets. (Luke 16:29-31) Here we see them. (Rev. 11:3ff.)

I do not think it valid to begin a study of Rev. with ch 20. It is common to do so, both to establish the future millennium, & to refute it. A study of Jesus' prophecies & "kingdom" teaching leads to a worldwide spread of the Gospel, with its acceptance of rejection, until his second coming, aka the harvest. That gives a framework for the understanding of Rev. Jesus' most detailed prophecy concerned the destruction, so we should firstly attempt to understand the Apostles' prophetic writings in terms of their Lord's prophecy.

We have a natural tendency to apply prophecy to our own times, as has been done throughout history, the black death, the RC persecutions, the establishment of Protestantism, the Napoleonic wars, & the rise of Germany, then Russia & now Islam. The establishment of the state & nation of Israel is also seen as the fulfilment of prophecy, despite the fact that Jesus makes no mention of it, rather the opposite. The Apostles make it very clear that believers comprise the Israel of prophecy, & are Abraham's seed. (Rom. 2, Gal. 3, 1 Peter 2)

[Deleted]

Given the following scheme, with Revelation written before AD 70, how should we understand the millennium?

• Christ - baptism - start of 70th week
  
• Christ - crucifixion & resurrection (middle of 70th week)
  
• Great commission - to all - beginning at Jerusalem & continuing to all nations - church age
  
• Ascension & Pentecost
  
• Israel disowned as "uncircumcised" (Acts 7:51) - end of 70th week
  
• Rebellion, Christians delivered from Jerusalem, prophesied destruction - AD 70 (144,000 delivered before the tribulation.)
  
• No further specific prophecy apart from Jesus' return - Mar 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
  
• Second coming - resurrection & judgement
  
• New Heaven & New Earth
  

[Deleted]

The obvious question & problem is, "If Satan is presently bound & in the abyss, bound by Jesus by his victory on the cross, why is he so active, & why does Peter refer to him as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour?

The same problem & the answer is seen earlier in Rev.

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Satan is exerting his evil influence from the abyss. He has no power except by permission, & his purpose is to free his captives. Why God allows the present tribulation & persecution is a problem for all of us - God is omnipotent. The persecution is by evil men, who are sold out to a captive devil.

Peter & Jude write of the state of sinning angels (of whom Satan is chief:)

2Pe 2:4 ¶ For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
.....
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

[benshelpmeet]

Dear Brother covenanter,

I am a free thinker, and an individual. Your stand does not make any sense to me. I'm trying to understand. When I read the book of the Revelation it does not seem to teach what you are saying. No one has all the answers, I know, but scripture seems to speak clearly, and literally.

I do not want to put my trust in bible doubters, and septics, but the written word of God, history backs up the validity of the word of God, and when it was written.

I think you have bought into a lie brother. I hate to say that.

Amillennialism, is a teaching common among Calvinists, Calvinists get their doctrine from the Reformation, and the Reformers came from the Catholic church, and brought the teachings of Augustine with them. This is a whole line of error.

We on this board do not believe in these erroneous teaching.

May the Lord bless you dear brother.

~ sister Darlene ~
2Tim 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

[Deleted]

Oct 22, 2009 12:03:23 GMT -5 benshelpmeet said:

Dear Brother covenanter,

I am a free thinker, and an individual. Your stand does not make any sense to me. I'm trying to understand. When I read the book of the Revelation it does not seem to teach what you are saying. No one has all the answers, I know, but scripture seems to speak clearly, and literally.

I do not want to put my trust in bible doubters, and septics, but the written word of God, history backs up the validity of the word of God, and when it was written.

I think you have bought into a lie brother. I hate to say that.

Amillennialism, is a teaching common among Calvinists, Calvinists get their doctrine from the Reformation, and the Reformers came from the Catholic church, and brought the teachings of Augustine with them. This is a whole line of error.

We on this board do not believe in these erroneous teaching.

May the Lord bless you dear brother.

~ sister Darlene ~
2Tim 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Dear Darlene,

Ben invited me here. I believe the Bible, & have done for over 50 years. I do not know why you quote Augustine - I haven't read his writings. I refer to Scripture to support what I write. I am not a "Bible doubter" nor a "sceptic."

My concern is to oppose the modern "prophecy-mongers" who are obsessed with Israel, & the so-called rapture, & are making their fortune with sensationalist books & films. These people are encouraging the present endless wars that are so damaging to our brave young men & of course the people they are trying to liberate. (Or are they trying to make us safer?) The command of Christ is to be faithful, to watch & pray. And of course to spread the Gospel.

I quoted Barnabas to show that post-Apostolic writers did not have a view of the millennium that is taught today. I asked Ben for other early quotations supporting his viewpoint.

So many American Bible Colleges use the Scofield Bible. It was popular over here in my younger days, though I have never possessed one. By writing a particular teaching on prophecy into the pages of the Bible, a corrupt version came into common use. Scofield was an evil man who after his claimed conversion (under Moody) abandoned his wife & children, defrauded his mother-in-law. 1Ti 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

This link includes a facsimile of his (wife's) divorce decree.

I believe the Bible - not a lie. We can disagree as Christians, but we need to be very careful how we use "lie" when referring to our brother's & sisters.

In Christian love,

Ian

[Brother Ben]

The obvious question & problem is, "If Satan is presently bound & in the abyss, bound by Jesus by his victory on the cross, why is he so active, & why does Peter refer to him as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour?

The problem is your assumption based on preconceived notions. The Devil is not currently bound in the abiss:

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

The same problem & the answer is seen earlier in Rev.

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Satan is exerting his evil influence from the abyss. He has no power except by permission, & his purpose is to free his captives. Why God allows the present tribulation & persecution is a problem for all of us - God is omnipotent. The persecution is by evil men, who are sold out to a captive devil.

You need to read your bible and coordinate its chronology and characters. Satan, the devil, is not bound in the abyss, nor is he working from there (this is pure imagination, no scriptural basis for this theory.) Paul just made that plain. However, the Beast and the False Prophet are. Notice, prior to the end:

Rev 9:1 ¶ And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, [which is] the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue [is] Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath [his] name Apollyon.

Rev 13:1 ¶ And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

That angel of the bottomless pit is the Beast.

Who is that old dragon that gave power to the Beast that rose up?

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Peter & Jude write of the state of sinning angels (of whom Satan is chief:)

2Pe 2:4 ¶ For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
.....
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Indeed! This is true, those angels were bound, but the old dragon, Satan, the devil is not bound.

Job 1:6 ¶ Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

This ol' dragon is not bound in the abyss. He is walking about:

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Peter agrees with Job.

So where did the Beast and False Prophet go? At the very end, Jesus will cast them into the lake of fire.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Then:

Rev 20:1 ¶ And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Scripturally consistent, and chronologically accurate.

More later.

[benshelpmeet]

Dear Bro Ian,

You are welcome on this site, I am aware that Bro Ben invited you.


Quote: I refer to Scripture to support what I write.

We all refer to Scripture to support what we believe.


Quote: I am not a "Bible doubter" nor a "septic."

I was not calling you a bible doubter or a sceptic...I should have been more clear, I was referring to the teaching you believe in, that the book of the revelation was written before AD 70. The Roman Catholic Church is the one who came up with that teaching. They are bible doubters, septics, and liars. They are not my brothers.

Quote: I believe the Bible - not a lie. We can disagree as Christians, but we need to be very careful how we use "lie" when referring to our brother's & sisters.

I hope I answered your concern clearly.



Quote: My concern is to oppose the modern "prophecy-mongers" who are obsessed with Israel, & the so-called rapture, & are making their fortune with sensationalist books & films. These people are encouraging the present endless wars that are so damaging to our brave young men & of course the people they are trying to liberate. (Or are they trying to make us safer?) The command of Christ is to be faithful, to watch & pray. And of course to spread the Gospel.


Bro Ben and I agree with you here, the Pre Trib Rapture is lulling the church into a false security.

We believe in Post Trib, Pre Wrath. We do believe in a literal thousand years ( Millennium ) as the bible teaches.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.



Quote: So many American Bible Colleges use the Scofield Bible. It was popular over here in my younger days, though I have never possessed one. By writing a particular teaching on prophecy into the pages of the Bible, a corrupt version came into common use. Scofield was an evil man who after his claimed conversion (under Moody) abandoned his wife & children, defrauded his mother-in-law. 1Ti 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

This link includes a facsimile of his (wife's) divorce decree.


I never have liked the Scofield Bible. And I did not know all that you know.


Please do not mistake our strong stand as unloving or unkind, If Brother Ben did not love you in the Lord he never would have invited you here. You are welcome here, We will just have to agree to disagree on this topic.

Blessings and Peace, ~ sister Darlene ~

[Brother Ben]

Bro Ian, please read my previous post (#7) and give me some feedback regarding my answers to your comments, and my observations from the bible.

[Deleted]

Oct 22, 2009 13:09:48 GMT -5 Brother Ben said:

The obvious question & problem is, "If Satan is presently bound & in the abyss, bound by Jesus by his victory on the cross, why is he so active, & why does Peter refer to him as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour?

The problem is your assumption based on preconceived notions. The Devil is not currently bound in the abiss:

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:



You need to read your bible and coordinate its chronology and characters. Satan, the devil, is not bound in the abyss, nor is he working from there (this is pure imagination, no scriptural basis for this theory.) Paul just made that plain. However, the Beast and the False Prophet are. Notice, prior to the end:

Rev 9:1 ¶ And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, [which is] the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue [is] Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath [his] name Apollyon.

Rev 13:1 ¶ And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

That angel of the bottomless pit is the Beast.

Who is that old dragon that gave power to the Beast that rose up?

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Peter & Jude write of the state of sinning angels (of whom Satan is chief:)

2Pe 2:4 ¶ For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
.....
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Indeed! This is true, those angels were bound, but the old dragon, Satan, the devil is not bound.

Job 1:6 ¶ Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

This ol' dragon is not bound in the abyss. He is walking about:

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Peter agrees with Job.

So where did the Beast and False Prophet go? At the very end, Jesus will cast them into the lake of fire.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Then:

Rev 20:1 ¶ And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Scripturally consistent, and chronologically accurate.

More later.

We read the same Bible, & I have no difficulty in reading standard size print. Please use colour, bold or italic for emphasis, not enlarged print.

There is little point in giving a detailed answer, as it is my interpretation against yours, & your selection of what is literal against mine. I take the opening verses literally. They make sense, & John's immediate readers have the encouragement & blessing. Compare Rev. 1:1-3 with Dan. 12:4.

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Rev 1:1 ¶ The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.

Surely John's immediate readers expected the fulfilment of the prophecy at least in their lifetime. If Jesus intended the fulfilment to 1900+ years hence he would have used different words. When he prophesied the destruction in the lifetime of his hearers, he said:

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Later on in Revelation he speaks of 1,000 years. He does not deliberately mislead us, so if he meant 2,000 years he would have indicated a distant unspecified time. In Mat. 24, He very specifically gave signs so that the Jerusalem Christians could see the imminent destruction & escape the city. Now he is saying the time [is] at hand.

In view of Peter's reference to the Lord's timing (one day/1,000 years) we should have no difficulty in expanding Rev. 20 to 2,000 years. (See also Ps. 90) I do have difficulty understanding Rev. 1:1-3 as being 2,000 years away.

Ian

[Brother Ben]

We read the same Bible, & I have no difficulty in reading standard size print. Please use colour, bold or italic for emphasis, not enlarged print.

I only enlarge the print in quote because the system shrinks them down and many of us (at least me,) are not getting any younger and the font in a quote is smaller than normal.

There is little point in giving a detailed answer, as it is my interpretation against yours, & your selection of what is literal against mine.

So, thus, we are for all practical purposes, finished with this discussion. So let's agree to disagree, agreeably.

I take the opening verses literally. They make sense, & John's immediate readers have the encouragement & blessing. Compare Rev. 1:1-3 with Dan. 12:4.

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Rev 1:1 ¶ The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.

I take more than just the openning verses literally, like:

Rev 1:4 ¶ John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

We have three different time periods here. So is there any reference to the later of three in the midst of these three time periods?

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

This did not happen in A.D. 70. Yes, some statements in scripture can clearly be in reference to the destruction in A.D. 70, but obviously, he did not come back in the clouds so we see that much of the prophetic message is about his literal coming in the clouds when all eyes shall see him. To refute this is to deny clear scripture.

Surely John's immediate readers expected the fulfilment of the prophecy at least in their lifetime. If Jesus intended the fulfilment to 1900+ years hence he would have used different words. When he prophesied the destruction in the lifetime of his hearers, he said:

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Perhaps they did, but any serious bible scholar knows that many if not most prophecies have primary and secondary applications.

Later on in Revelation he speaks of 1,000 years. He does not deliberately mislead us, so if he meant 2,000 years he would have indicated a distant unspecified time. In Mat. 24, He very specifically gave signs so that the Jerusalem Christians could see the imminent destruction & escape the city. Now he is saying the time [is] at hand.

This one of the area where we would differ on which scriptures we chose to compare.

In view of Peter's reference to the Lord's timing (one day/1,000 years) we should have no difficulty in expanding Rev. 20 to 2,000 years. (See also Ps. 90) I do have difficulty understanding Rev. 1:1-3 as being 2,000 years away.

Peter said a day with the Lord is as 1,000 years, but John called the millennium, 1,000 years. I take it literally. If you look at the pattern of the creative order. We have 7,000 years of Earth's history:

• From Creation to the Flood, 2,000 years
  
• From the Flood the the first coming of Christ, 2,000 years
  
• From the first coming to the second coming of Christ, 2,000 years
  
• The (literal) 1,000 year kingdom

Seven days of the Lord (7,000 years) with his creation.

We are in the end of the 6th day, (6 the number of man,) waiting for day #7, (7 the number of the Lord/perfection.) He will rule and reign on Earth on the throne of David.

Psa 110:1 [] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Mar 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Hbr 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Rev 11:15 ¶ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

We are just waiting for the Greater David to take his place. The 1,000 year kingdom is just phase one of the final things concerning man, sin, earth, and the eternal plan.

Oh, yes, I choose not to continue engaging in the topic of early church father quotes, or the A.D. 66-68 writing of the Revelation. Those these could be discussed ad nauseum, they are not holy writ and have no final authority.