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Post by George on May 5, 2008 17:56:56 GMT -5
Wow! I just did a little on-line research on Grave's Disease. It can be quite difficult as you are fully aware.
Brothers and sisters, this young lady needs a lot of our prayers. Although Grave's is rarely life threatening it is quite a debilitating disease.
Sister, my prayers are with you.
In Christ, George
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Post by allglorytogod on May 5, 2008 18:03:47 GMT -5
Sister Valli
Good to see you again ! Sorry to hear about your health problems. Hope you are feeling better
I can totally relate to what you are saying ... it's an ongoing process of study, learning and growing ... this continues on throughout our whole life I believe ... it's exciting when those ' layers ' reveal more to us
Sounds good sister
Welcome back Be well Love, your sister
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Post by allglorytogod on May 5, 2008 19:59:22 GMT -5
Sister Valli
Praying for you also
Blessings sister
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Post by 7schmicks on May 5, 2008 22:26:42 GMT -5
Dear Sister Valli, You have been in my thoughts, and I had wondered why we hadn't heard from you lately. Our bodies are so frail. I often think that the Lord sends us illness in our earthly bodies to help us long for our Heavenly ones all the more! I will pray for you. I know what you mean about putting feet in mouths and also not being so sure of things that you thought you once knew. I have experienced the same things. But I do like to occasionally be allowed to discuss Scriptural principles with other Christians, for who knows, maybe the Lord will use my musings and ponderings to help someone else who is struggling with similar issues. Plus, the viewpoints of other Christians is often different enough from my own, that hearing them helps to challenged me to dig deeper in the Scriptures for answers! That's how we grow. Having said that, I usually go to my husband with most of my theological questions - wives are supposed to learn at home from them. It helps keep unity in the home. My husband is blessed with a wealth of knowledge from his years at Bible college, especially in church history and theology. It does amaze me that there can be such a diversity of beliefs among those who claim the same Bible as their only guide. Here's some "Food for thought" for you and the others. Is this diversity because we don't spend enough time studying it, or is it because we approach it with already preconceived notions that we've "absorbed" from our parents or the church in which we grew up? Also, is it possible to really grow in the Lord, if we are part of a denomination which seems to already have all of the answers and doesn't allow any differences of opinion from its members on the meanings of Scripture? Just a few musings and ponderings. Sister Brenda
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Post by allglorytogod on May 6, 2008 0:50:57 GMT -5
1. women should have long hair , not bobbed 2. women should not wear make-up, wear jewelry, etc... 3. women should wear modest clothing 4. abomination for women to wear pants 5. head covering for church and prayer etc...
Have todays Bible colleges gone liberal ? Like the churches ? Are they ' picking and choosing ' from The Bible what they teach today ? Are the teachings at these Bible colleges all scriptural ? I don't believe so. There is scriptural teachings but along with that is ' man's wrong interpretation of the scriptures '
Are students being taught that items # 1 - 5 above are not important today ? They are important today. If men were taught that these items were valid today don't you think it would be practiced in the churches today instead of ' looked down upon ? '
These Bible colleges today are just as flawed in teaching as some of the churches you find today. That is my belief. A lot of ' picking and choosing ' from The Bible ... what is convenient for man we will do but what is not convenient ' let us overlook '
God is unchanging. God's Word is unchanging.
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Post by allglorytogod on May 6, 2008 21:02:49 GMT -5
Sister Valli
I'm curious ... what is the difference between a ' truck driver ' and an ' over-the-road truck driver ' ? I've wanted to ask you this for some time.
Blessings sister
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kscarle
Member
Philippians 4:4, Romans 12:1, John 14:15
Posts: 97
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Post by kscarle on May 8, 2008 11:58:50 GMT -5
one is local or just goes between 2 or 3 states and an OTR goes all over the country and sometimes to Canada and Mexico
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kscarle
Member
Philippians 4:4, Romans 12:1, John 14:15
Posts: 97
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Post by kscarle on May 8, 2008 12:21:06 GMT -5
I am actually in a Bible College that holds to standards. They also believe in modesty for the men....I am modest in my dress, but I don't think someone is a devil just because they don't wear pants, some people just don't know. I did not know about the head covering when I got saved and not for a long time later. (in fact I was harsh about those who did because I did not know better ...I'm of the mind that we have a shortage of discipleship in our churches I read in the computer question thread and thought I would try the quote box, I also dicovered you can preview
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Post by allglorytogod on May 8, 2008 23:53:42 GMT -5
allglorytogod post
[/size][/color] kscarle postMy post is above your post ... wanted to make it clear to all I didn't refer to anyone as a devil and never would ... lol ... where did you get that devil thing from My question about Bible colleges is ... Does your college teach women should not be pastors, women not to teach in church, women learn in silence in church, women should wear coverings, women not to wear pants, women to dress modestly, women should have long hair. Now, does your college teach all these things to the students ?
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Post by SisterNancy on May 9, 2008 22:51:55 GMT -5
I have read that because the angels minister to us the covering makes it easier for them to recognize us as believers as daughters of the King.
we may never know what the full meaning of that passage is but we do know we are to wear the covering!
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Post by George on May 10, 2008 0:02:01 GMT -5
I promised some time back I would do some research on this subject. It appears there is really no consensus of opinion among commentators as to exactly what this verse is really saying. Let me share with you the writings of two well known conservative commentators, John Gill and Albert Barnes have to say. It appears to be one of those things that we will not know the answer to until we get to Heaven. As you can see from the commentators this subject has been discussed for almost as long as the Bible has existed.
"1Co 11:10 - For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head,.... The generality of interpreters, by power, understand the veil, or covering on the woman's head, as a sign of the man's power over her, and her subjection to him; which Dr. Hammond endeavours to confirm, by observing that the Hebrew word רדיד, which signifies a woman's veil, or hood, comes from a root which signifies power and dominion; but in that he is mistaken, for the word is derived not from רדה, to rule, govern, or exercise power and authority, but from רדד, to expand, stretch out, or draw over, as a woman's veil is drawn over her head and face. The Greek word εξουσια more properly signifies the power she had of putting on and off her covering as she pleased, according as times, places, and persons; made it necessary:
because of the angels; various are the senses given of these words, some taking them in a proper, others in a figurative sense: some in a proper sense of angels, and these either good or bad. Tertullian (e) understands them of evil angels, and that a woman should cover her head in time of worship, lest they should lust after her; though much rather the reason should be, lest they should irritate and provoke lust in others: but it is better to understand them of good angels, who attend the assemblies of the saints, and observe the air and behaviour of the worshippers; wherefore women should cover their heads with respect to them, and not give offence to those pure spirits, by an indecent appearance: it is agreeable to the notions of the Jews, that angels attend public prayers, and at the expounding of the word; they often speak (f) of an angel, הממונה על התפלות "that is appointed over prayers"; hence (g) Tertullian seems to have took his notion of an angel of prayer: and of angels being present at expounding of the Scriptures, take the following story (h);
"it happened to Rabban Jochanan ben Zaccai, that he was riding upon an ass, and as he was journeying, R. Eleazar ben Arach was leading an ass after him; he said to him, Rabbi, teach me one chapter in the work of Mercavah (Ezekiel's vision); he replied to him, not so have I taught you, nor in the Mercavah a single man, unless he was a wise man by his own industry; he answered him, Rabbi, give me leave to say one thing before thee, which thou hast taught me; immediately Rabban Jochanan ben Zaccai alighted from his ass and "veiled himself", and sat upon a stone under an olive tree; he said to him, Rabbi, why dost thou alight off from the ass? he replied, is it possible that thou shouldst expound in the work of Mercavah, and the Shekinah be with us, ומלאכי השרת מלוין אותנו, "and the ministering angels join us", and I ride upon an ass?''
And a little after,
"R. Joshua and R. Jose the priest were walking on the road, they said, yea, let us expound in the work of Mercavah; R. Joshua opened and expounded, and that day was the solstice of Tammuz, and the heavens were thickened with clouds, and there appeared the form of a bow in the cloud, "and the ministering angels gathered together", ובאין לשמוע, "and came to hear": as the children of men gather together, and come to see the rejoicings of the bridegroom and bride.''
Moreover, this veiling of the woman in public worship because of angels, may be an imitation of the good angels, who when they sung the praises of God, and adored and glorified his perfections, covered their faces and their feet with their wings, Isa_6:1. Many understanding these words in a figurative sense, and in this also they are not agreed; some by angels think young men are meant, who, for their gracefulness and comeliness, are compared to angels; others good men in general, that attend religious worship; others ministers of the word, called angels often in the book of the Revelations; which last seems to be most agreeable of any of these senses; and the women were to cover their heads, that they might not offend either of these, or stir up any impure desires in them; see Ecc_5:6 but as these words follow the account given of the creation of the woman from the man, and for his sake; this may have no reference to her conduct in public worship, but to the power she had of using her covering, or taking it off, or putting it on, at the time of her espousals to a man; which was sometimes done by proxy, or messengers, whom the Jews call שלוחים, "angels" (i); their canon is,
"a man may espouse (a wife) by himself, ובשלוחו, "or by his angel", or messenger; and a woman may be espoused by herself, or by her angel, or messenger:''
wherefore because of these angels, or messengers, that came to espouse her to such, she had power over her head to take off her veil, and show herself, if she thought fit; or to keep it on, as expressing her modesty; or just as she pleased, when she by them was espoused to a man, for whose sake she was made; which sense, after Dr. Lightfoot, many learned men have given into, and seems probable. " (Gill)
"1Co 11:10 - For this cause ... - There is scarcely any passage in the Scriptures which has more exercised the ingenuity of commentators than this verse. The various attempts which have been made to explain it may be seen in Pool, Rosenmuller, Bloomfield, etc. After all the explanations which have been given of it, I confess, I do not understand it. It is not difficult to see what the connection requires us to suppose in the explanation. The obvious interpretation would be, that a woman should have a veil on her head because of the angels who were supposed to be present, observing them in their public worship; and it is generally agreed that the word “power” (ἐξουσίαν exousian) denotes a veil, or a covering for the head. But the word power does not occur in this sense in any classic writer. Bretschneider understands it of a veil, as being a defense or guard to the face, lest it should be seen by others. Some have supposed that it was the name of a female ornament that was worn on the head, formed of braids of hair set with jewels. Most commentators agree that it means a “veil,” though some think (see Bloomfield) that it is called power to denote the veil which was worn by married women, which indicated the superiority of the married woman to the maiden. But it is sufficient to say in reply to this, that the apostle is not referring to married women in contradistinction from those who are unmarried, but is showing that all women who prophecy or pray in public should be veiled. There can, perhaps, be no doubt that the word “power” has reference to a veil, or to a covering for the head; but why it is called power I confess I do not understand; and most of the comments on the word are, in my view, egregious trifling.
Because of the angels - Some have explained this of good angels, who were supposed to be present in their assemblies (see Doddridge); others refer it to evil angels; and others to messengers or spies who, it has been supposed, were present in their public assemblies, and who would report greatly to the disadvantage of the Christian assemblies if the women were seen to be unveiled. I do not know what it means; and I regard it as one of the very few pass ages in the Bible whose meaning as yet is wholly inexplicable. The most natural interpretation seems to me to be this: “A woman in the public assemblies, and in speaking in the presence of people, should wear a veil - the usual symbol of modesty and subordination - because the angels of God are witnesses of your public worship Heb_1:13, and because they know and appreciate the propriety of subordination and order in public assemblies.”
According to this, it would mean that the simple reason would be that the angels were witnesses of their worship; and that they were the friends of propriety, due subordination, and order; and that they ought to observe these in all assemblies convened for the worship of God - I do not know that this sense has been proposed by any commentator; but it is one which strikes me as the most obvious and natural, and consistent with the context. The following remarks respecting the ladies of Persia may throw some light on this subject - “The head-dress of the women is simple; their hair is drawn behind the head, and divided into several tresses; the beauty of this head-dress consists in the thickness and length of these tresses, which should fall even down to the heels, in default of which, they lengthen them with tresses of silk. The ends of these tresses they decorate with pearls and jewels, or ornaments of gold or silver. The head is covered, “under” the veil or kerchief “(course chef),” only by the end of a small “bandeau,” shaped into a triangle; this “bandeau,” which is of various colors, is thin and light.
The “bandalette” is embroidered by the needle, or covered with jewelry, according to the quality of the wearer. This is, in, my opinion, the ancient “tiara,” or “diadem,” of the queens of Persia. Only married women wear it; and it is the mark by which it is known that they are under subjection “(oc’est la la marque a laquelle on reconnoit qu’ elles sont sous puissance o - power).” The girls have little “caps,” instead of this kerchief or tiara; they wear no veil at home, but let two tresses of their hair fall under their cheeks. The caps of girls of superior rank are tied with a row of pearls. Girls are not shut up in Persia till they attain the age of six or seven years; before that age they go out of the seraglio, sometimes with their father, so that they may then be seen. I have seen some wonderfully pretty girls. They show the neck and bosom; and more beautiful cannot be seen” - Chardin. “The wearing of a veil by a married woman was a token of her being under power. The Hebrew name of the veil signifies dependence. Great importance was attached to this part of the dress in the East. All the women of Persia are pleasantly apparelled. When they are abroad in the streets, all, both rich and poor, are covered with a great veil, or sheet of very fine white cloth, of which one half, like a forehead cloth, comes down to the eyes, and, going over the head, reaches down to the heels; and the other half muffles up the face below the eyes, and being fastened with a pin to the left side of the head, falls down to their very shoes, even covering their hands, with which they hold that cloth by the two sides, so that, except the eyes, they are covered all over with it. Within doors they have their faces and breasts uncovered; but the Armenian women in their houses have always one half of their faces covered with a cloth, that goes athwart their noses, and hangs over their chin and breasts, except the maids of that nation, who, within doors, cover only the chin until they are married” - Thevenot." (Barnes)
I suppose we shall have to keep working on this subject but I believe that if such noted Bible scholars cannot agree on the meaning of this verse we shall not be able to either.
In Christ, George
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Post by allglorytogod on May 10, 2008 0:22:51 GMT -5
Brother
Thank you
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Post by SisterNancy on May 10, 2008 7:06:01 GMT -5
wow, I found your writing to be very interesting. Thank you for taking the time to research it for us. I agree with the angels being the good angels that are present with us when we worship. How awesome to think of that
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Post by allglorytogod on May 10, 2008 21:29:09 GMT -5
This does not sound good ...
This sounds very good ...
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