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Post by joanneshr on Mar 8, 2007 13:28:05 GMT -5
Estimated Iraqi civilians murdered so far (since the 2003 military intervention by the US and its allies): between 58192 and 63973. Here's an interesting page to back those numbers up (the data base lists all the details): www.iraqbodycount.netThat's a lot of people. The Lancet (British Medical Journal) estimates the number much higher at about 100,000. How many of these people were sent to Hell? Number of US military personnel that died so far: about 3188 as of yesterday. Here's an interesting site that has an Excel spreadsheet listing ALL the US military members who have died so far during "Iraqi Freedom" (last updated Feb 17, 2007): www.defendamerica.mil/fallen.htmlClick on "operation Iraqi Freedom" to be directed to the spreadsheet. Here's a PDF link to another database for the US military killed or wounded: www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf
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Post by jeff on Mar 8, 2007 15:47:23 GMT -5
Their authority is ordained of God (not their methods of doing it.) Should believers take part in their excercise of authority (thier methods?) No. So, you see, we are citizens of "another" kingdom, even though we dwell right here in the midst of this one called America. Bro. Ben, That is probably one of the best ways I have heard it stated. Excellent, Thank YOU!!
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Post by Brother Ben on Mar 9, 2007 9:03:14 GMT -5
Heather (coveredwife) said:
I never said anything about anti-military, only that the citizens of God's kingdom do not fight in it because they are to obey the previously given scriptures.
To take matter in my own hand is to take vengence on the one who has intruded my home. It is to doubt God's ability to take care of His children. Having said that, I would peacefully stand in between the aggressor and my family as they slipped out the back door and tell him/her of the love of Christ and His ability to save him and set him free from the powers that bind him/her to such an action.
Heather, You need to look at the scriptures and stop listening to your heart. This is an emotionally charged issue because of strong American patriotism which we were all raised with. You also have a dear husband in the armed forces, I understand that too. but, we must look to the scritpures alone.
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Post by mom2fourblessings on Mar 9, 2007 10:41:50 GMT -5
Bro Ben,
Thank you for this.. my husband and I have this discussion sometimes, and I gather all the info I can for him.. He is willing to hear the "other side" but being a Baptist raises, southern born, boy, he is very patriotic, and very supportive of the military, and deeply regrets that he was unable to join due to some allergies that kept him out.. He feels it is every man's American Duty to fight in the military..
Anyway, just the other day we were discussing the issue again, and while he will listen to the scriptures and things I read to him, he does not sway his mind.. He said maybe I am right, but that just wasn't what he was raised to believe.. it is so sad how indoctrinated we have become with patriotisim in America.. I am not saying it is wrong to pray for our troops.. I PRAY everyday for their safety and that they will come home soon.. I have MANY family members and friends that are actively serving right now.. Anyway.. The other night when we were talking I ask him the family questions.. however I put it to him like David Bercot's book did.. I said if the government ask you to deny Christ to save your family would you.. He says.. of course not.. and I would kill as many of them as I could.. then I said, well what if they ask you to kill the neighbor to save us.. he said I couldn't do it, I don't think... I would just try to kill all of them.. I said, why kill them.. he says to save you all.. I said, what gives you that decision making ability to say who must live and die.. and the biggest thing is "could God not protect all of us" He said yes HE could.. I said well then why wouldn't you just trust God and let Him take care of it.. of course he said human nature, sinful human nature, he probably wouldn't think about it at that time and that maybe God's way of taking care of it would be to have him protect us, since God has appointed him guardian of his family.....but that he agreed that would be the best way to take care of things.. but his nature was that he couldn't do it.. I said, what has made you that way.. He said "life and things" I suppose.. Anyway we are abstaining from TV for a time being.. so I asked what things.. and he said..well I guess a lot of cowboy movies, John Wayne, WWII flicks etc.. he said, you protect people from evil.. I said.. "REALLY" well then if that is what you grew up watching and it has influenced you that much.. even though you said TV has NEVER influenced you.. what do you think the things we allow the children to watch does to them.. like the cartoons, (eg, he sees nothing wrong with Little Mermaid, who disobeys her dad, then sells her soul to satan(the sea witch) then runs off with a man, but in the end disobeying was ok.. and it all ends well with Dad's blessing.. ) anyway my daughter does not watch it anymore, but I brought it up to him anyway, because it was the one I could think of at the time.. and he thought long and hard and said hmmm never really thought about it that way.. good point.. I don't know.. maybe this no tv thing isn't such a bad idea.. ;D ;D Anway.. I had been praying the whole night after the children were in bed, as it was the first time since we turned off the TV's that he and I had really had a chance to sit down and discuss anything.. (he is working 12-16 hour days right now) and well even though I wanted to talk to him about non-resistance because he doesn't want me teaching that to the boys... it led to the TV thing.. I was just praying for God to lead the discussion and lead me to say only respectful and non authoritative things to my husband, because I did not want to nag, act holier than thou.. (because I am FAR from that) or beat him over the head with anything as to close it to any further discussion.. Well PRAISE GOD.. I think it did even though it wasn't what "I" originally intended to talk about.. He has even commented several times on how much nicer the house seems with the TV's off and how much more time even he has to do things.. and spend with the boys, and me, and we get in bed so much earlier, because he was staying up late just watching anything..surfing.. I mean the TV really had a hold here on him and the boys.. but they being children, haven't seem to miss it much, once or twice they have asked about it, but I just say, nope, no TV remember.. and they say.. OH YEAH and run along.. Anyway I am rambling on and on.. So anyway, this whole story to say, that God used this discussion here about non-resistance.. to help us in other areas.. and I just wanted to thank you.. Because of this board and this topic, and me often sharing what is on the board with him.. it brought us closer to getting one form of evil from our home.. PRAISE THE LORD..
Thank you Brother Ben and Sister Darlene.. your ministry reaches further that you will ever, EVER know.. it even reaches many people who have never, ever, seen this board..
Please keep us in your prayers was we work through other issues.. Josh and I are not in the same place on some things.. so we both pray that God will lead us both to the same place, and that place being where GOD wants us to be and to teach us what GOD wants and expects from us.. we are just recently thinking of finding an early morning time to do a couples Bible study without the children before he goes to work.. it will be VERY early.. so please pray for us that we will have the strength to get up and not be tempted to stay in bed.. I think we REALLY need some study time alone together.. we have never had that in our married life.. Thanks Again..
In Christ's Love, Sister Heather
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Post by mom2fourblessings on Mar 15, 2007 6:11:47 GMT -5
Hello Brothers.. I have a question from my husband that I am hoping you all can answer for me.. As I have said, he is just now to the point of being able to discuss non resistance with me.. He has said many times "I am not nor will I ever be non resistant.....if someone were to come breaking through our door, while we were home, I would assume they were out to harm my wife and children and I would stop them by whatever means necessary and I feel like that is my duty as head and protector of this family... "etc.. But anyway.. now he is discussing it, but still says he don't know if he can be totally non resistant or not.. so last night he asked this.. "Ok, so say someone breaks into your home, you are not going to kill him.. however you call 911, the police come, and then they kill him.. is that not the same thing?? Would his life and blood still not be on your hands since you called 911 and the police came and they killed him.. because you called them? ?" I hope I am making that clear.. Do any of you brothers have anything to help answer this, any scriptures.. It really got me thinking.. I mean what is the difference in you calling them and them killing him or you just killing him??? either way it is because of you that he is dead.. I hope this doesn't sound like I am trying to be a smarty pants, or start a debate.. because I would really like to know what you all think from a non-resistant side.. Thanks a bunch.. In Christ's Love, Sister Heather
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Post by Brother Ben on Mar 15, 2007 7:59:54 GMT -5
No, that is what the police are for. They ARE ordained of God to to be a terror to those who do evil, we are not.
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Post by joanneshr on Mar 15, 2007 18:48:48 GMT -5
either way it is because of you that he is dead.. Dear Sister, I'm sure there's a better way to say this, but I'm so tired from working on the house all day that nothing intelligent is coming to mind. I'd just like to point out that it's not because of 'you' that he's dead, it's because HE chose to sin and break into your house. The proper authorities (as already mentioned being ordained by God) were called and they took care of it as they saw fit. I pray this made sense? With Love.
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Post by jacinda on Jun 6, 2007 17:00:43 GMT -5
OOOH, These are great discussions. Thank you.
Jacinda
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Post by anabean on Oct 16, 2007 12:04:42 GMT -5
Of course I am a nonresistant believer. There is tons of scripture!
Heres ONE: JOHN18:36 We are not of this world, we do not fight.
We are told to love our enemies. It is kinda hard to love your enemies and kill them at the same time.
It was the Catholic church that first promoted that a believer could kill. The catholic church is the false church.
Mennonites find it hard to believe someone has passed from death to life if he kills someone, or that they are true believers. We have the Spirit of God when we get saved.....and the fruits of the Spirit are in Galatians 5:22-25.....if you like killing or think it something you can without asking Christ to forgive you...it may be a good time to make your calling and election sure. Revenge or killing enemies is not a fruit of the Spirit. We can be bold in speech and in preaching, but we cannot kill. The Christians kingdom allegiance is not to any country on this earth as they will all pass away. Killing is also not becoming of a disciple.....disciples do not have time to serve in the Govt. God never commands us to serve in the Govt.....we are to submit to the govt unless it crosses God's lines. A disciple must forsake all, yes even the prideful positions of high authority and being a "hero". Luke 14:25-35 No disciple of Christ ever killed a man in the New Testament. God ordained the lost world to serve and kill. State and church are to be separate.
Those who believe you can kill, ask yourself this "would I have to ask God for forgiveness If I did so?"
If your answer is no! I am doing God's will. Then think about Pharoh whom God raised up for HIS purpose to persecute the Children of Israel. Was he sinning? Yes, even though God raised him up for the task. (also for calvinists...noticed it says RAISED up, not created) You are NOT doing God's will if you kill your enemies....because you cannot love them and kill them at the same time. Catholicism, and Protestantism are based majorly on that doctrine. We are to be separate from the world...not join in their hopeless ends of desctruction. We cannot through political means save the world. We already know per the scriptures evil men and seducers will get worse....not better.
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Post by Brother Ben on Oct 22, 2007 12:35:44 GMT -5
Interesting quote from article.
The Liberties of Nonresistant Christians. Some Americans supported neither side in the Revolution. Instead, as Mennonite and German Baptist leaders said in 1775, "We have dedicated ourselves to serve all men in everything that can be helpful to the preservation of men's lives, but...we are not at liberty in conscience to take up arms to conquer our enemies, but rather to pray to God, who has power in heaven and on earth, for us and them." Chief among these nonresistant Christians were the Quakers, Mennonites, German Baptists, Moravians, and Schwenkfelders.
Most nonresistant Christians were quite content with their lot as British subjects. As three Mennonite bishops in Pennsylvania wrote in 1773, "Through God's mercy we enjoy unlimited freedom in both civil and religious matters." Ironically, once the fight for liberty started, the freedom of nonresistant Christians became sharply limited.
Just to be clear, nonresistance is not a Mennonite issue, but a Bible issue. We may not all see eye-to-eye on the issue, but should consider what these brethren have said throughout history.
Bro. Ben
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kscarle
Member
Philippians 4:4, Romans 12:1, John 14:15
Posts: 97
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Post by kscarle on Dec 1, 2007 11:43:59 GMT -5
God put a flaming sword to keep out anyone trying to enter His property.
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Post by benshelpmeet on Dec 1, 2007 12:01:01 GMT -5
Please clarify, what is your point? And did you read the entire thread?
Blessings, ~ sister Darlene ~
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Post by Tammy on Mar 10, 2008 20:54:26 GMT -5
I have read this thread with great interest. The Scripture is abundantly clear that we are not to avenge ourselves. But I have two practical questions, for clarification:
One, if I am not to resist evil, should I lock my doors at night, or not?
Two, if someone were to come into my house with the obvious intend to harm me or my little ones, could I not injure him to keep him from committing the intended crime? Would I not be doing him a service by keeping him from committing a crime for which he would eventually pay, perhaps with his life?
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Post by anabean on Mar 11, 2008 9:25:09 GMT -5
I felt I should point out...nonresistance is not a "mennonite" or "anabaptist" doctrine. But a scriptural doctrine. If a doctrine is just mennonite, or baptist....we should throw it out if it does not match the bible.
-anabean
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Post by Brother Ben on Mar 11, 2008 11:43:05 GMT -5
I'll try to repeat this story as briefly as possible. In early America there were some Christians that practiced nonresistence who lived among the Indians. The Indians knew and respected them. When turmoil came and the Indians went to war with the white man they came to the house of those humble Christians one night. The chief declared, "If they have barred the door, which they had never done before, I will know that they are like all other white men and I will kill them." Upon openning the door, there he found the family sleeping peacefully under the Great Shepherds care. The Indians quietly crept back out without harming them. Though trouble raged all night and their were many deaths, these peoples faith kept them from harm.
Only if you can do so and keep Christs command:
Mat 5:43 ΒΆ Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
I do think, in the event one came to harm your family, you could stand between them and your family as they leave out the back door and flee to safety. I did notice listen to a message from a brother in the persecuted church in China, they are careful to mind the Spirit of God because sometimes He says run, and sometimes He says stay and endure persecution for the testimony of Christ. I know this is mysterious and not common to our American thought patterns, but our action are a reflection on the kingdom of God and our citizenship there.
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