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Post by Brother Ben on Dec 19, 2006 8:47:51 GMT -5
We are to beware of groups that teach that if you don't match up to their twenty-seven point inspection, you are not a Christian. I thought about this the other night as I drove by the Seventh Day Adventist church near my home. They believe that Sunday worship is "the mark of the beast" and if you church on Sunday, you are part of the anti-christ. Just so you will know what they are thinking when they are talking to you. Beware of those that cause seditions and heresies.
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Post by brobob on Jan 11, 2007 16:46:01 GMT -5
Amen!
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Post by msbrittany on Feb 23, 2009 15:17:36 GMT -5
They also believe you can lose your Salvation. I'm not a Biblical Scholar by any means but I have never found where anyone loses their Salvation. www.scionofzion.com/eternally_secure.htm (this site really breaks it down and even gives explanation for the people who do believe that you can lose your salvation, which is good to know about in case you are talking to any such person) I also know that Jehovah's Witnesses believe if they don't meet the certain quota of door knocking each week they will go to Hell for it. I am not against witnessing to anyone but be doing it for the right reasons! (To glorify God and spread the Gospel because you have a genuine concern for people, not because you are worried about your own well being! "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8 & 9
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Post by coveredinharmony on Feb 23, 2009 16:47:19 GMT -5
Hi, sister I'll read that article and let you now what I think. I am of the mindset that a person can lose their salvation if they walk away from the faith and don't repent, and it will be interesting to look at this and see if I am wrong. I do want to point out that the Jehovah's Witnesses officially do not believe that hell exists. They believe that if you die without being a JW that you just stop existing. How that matches with the Biblical description of the rich man in hell and Lazarus in Abraham's busom I will never know, especially because they also believe that only 144,000 go to heaven and everyone else gets paradise on earth.
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Post by benshelpmeet on Feb 23, 2009 19:00:15 GMT -5
If you can walk away from your faith/salvation, and do not repent, then you never had salvation, regeneration, redemption, atonement, justification, and imputation in the first place, you had religion, many professing christians have taken hold and religion adorns them well, making many think they are saved.
If you have truly been born again you cannot loose or walk away and never repent. The Spirit of God that dwells in the heart of the saved, draws that one to repent. Thank you Lord!
I think alot of people enter into ''religion'', with the flesh energized in the direction of self betterment, and appeasing the God of heaven that every living creature knows exist.
After a while (for some a great while), when the trials of life and the lessons we learn from earthly reality come their way, they are broken in spirit, and spiritually they are not strong and the unsaved fall away so to speak, leaving off the christian walk and experiance...never to return. Now if they ''were'' truly saved and (lost or walked away) from their salvation than they would be in a bad way, because they could never repent and get saved a second time, because they would have to crucify Christ afresh, which cannot be done. Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: Heb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Heb 6:19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Heb 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. But on the other hand a christian who is truly born again, if they become deeply discouraged and weak in spirit, the Spirit of God will chasten them and draw them...back to repentance.Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. We do not believe the bible teaches unconditional eternal security, but instead perseverance of the truly saved.
Most Baptist in an effort to prop up the doctrine of justification by faith, go into error, teaching that a person can depart from practicing the christian faith never to repent, and still be considered a saved person. This is direct contrast to Jesus plain teaching.John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:~ sister Darlene ~ 2Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
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Post by coveredinharmony on Feb 23, 2009 19:09:07 GMT -5
I think you stated my point exactly, dear sister. I think the majority that walk away from the faith were never saved in the first place, but there are the few who are saved who do not persevere who lose their salvation. Thank you Love in Christ, Little sister Sarah
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Post by Brother Ben on Feb 24, 2009 9:03:22 GMT -5
Sister Sarah,
Just for clarification, sister Darlene is not saying some lose their salvation, unless you emphasize, some lose "their" salvation, not the one issued from the Lord. Some have a manmade faith and it will not last.
In other words, if you can lose it, it was not authentic, Spirit-filled, and lasting. Many, in our day of apostate religion, make a "profession." Perhaps they read a tract and said the prayer, never being drawn by the Spirit of God, or never having repented. Some were lead through a series of verses and a prayer, (1,2,3, say this prayer salvation,) likewise, nevere having been convicted by the Spirit of God and never turning in authentic repentant faith.
The sign that one has authentic faith is that they perservere in the faith. Some get into the fight of trying to make this either a Calvinistic or Arminian battle (can lose it verses can't lose it.) The bottom line is, if one walks away from practicing the Christian faith and never repents, they have no hope of heaven. If they had genuine faith, the Spirit of God would lead them to repent. As the verse listed above:
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
There, there is the evidence. Not, did I say a prayer, or am I dogmatic in my churches creed, or 50 other so-called evidences, but is one lead by the Spirit of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
If one falls into a state of spiritual decline, as we all have done, you will know you are a child of God because the Spirit of God will draw you to cry out, "Abba, Father, I am lost in the thicket!" And he, being a faithful shepherd will hear the voice of his sheep and go after him. But if one departs from the path of faith, and never repents, he is not one of His.
Does that make sense?
I really don't think one can "lose their salvation." I know this is popular in plain circles, but the fact of the matter is Jesus gives eternal life. Eternal is a quality and a quantitiy. In quality, it is Spirit-filled and holy, in quantity, it is everlasting. Look at this verse which is VERY OFTEN misinterpreted.
Hbr 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
That word uttermost is usually preached like this, "He is able to save the Wall Street Banker and the Skid Row Bum!" Sounds good right? And it IS true, Amen! But, that is not what that verse is saying. It is saying that he, Jesus, is able to save those who come to him by genuine repentant faith from the point of placing faith in him all the way to eternity, BECAUSE he ever liveth and makes intercession for them. He put it this way in the Gospel of John
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
and again
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice , and I know them, and they follow me: John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. John 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
Theologians over the centuries have wrestled this verse right out of the hands of God to push their doctrine and dogma.
Does that make sense?
Some Calvinists and Arminians do a disservice to the faith by insisting that you have either UNconditional salvation, or overlyconditional salvaiton. Jesus was neither teaching unconditional eternal (fire insurance) salvation, or conditinal (he loves me, he loves me not,) salvation, he was teaching that the real eternal salvation is evident by the walk. Those who have the real thing walk on, those who do not turn away and
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
If one does not have fruit-bearing faith, he will be gathered and thrown into the fire. Some say, "Oh, that just means his works will be judged at the Bema seat, but he will be saved, but that is not what Jesus was teaching. If one departs from practicing the faith, it is an evidence that he does not have the real thing and he will go to hell even if he "said the prayer."
I hope this made things more clear.
Bro. Ben
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Post by coveredinharmony on Feb 24, 2009 9:35:42 GMT -5
((nods)) I completely understand what you mean. I suppose I'm just bad with phrasing it Love in Christ, Sarah
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Post by benshelpmeet on Feb 24, 2009 9:38:04 GMT -5
Thank you Bro Ben for your most accurate post! I thought my post was clear, that one cannot loose or walk away from there salvation, when I read sister Sarah's post... I knew I definitely did not explain it good enough.I think you stated my point exactly, dear sister. I think the majority that walk away from the faith were never saved in the first place, but there are the few who are saved who do not persevere who lose their salvation. Thank you Love in Christ, Little sister Sarah That is not what I was saying at all sister Sarah, maybe I wasn't as clear as I thought I was. I ran it by Bro Ben and he thought it sounded good, but maybe I should have said more or less and been clearer.
You would not believe the chaos that was going on while I was trying to make that post...my daughters were down in the woods checking out a possible spring (water source) coming out the side of our mountain and they came across a ''mad daddy possim''...they killed and buried it, then came running in with the exciting story, then they went to the barn to feed the animals and Jake our giant, hyper Lab got loose and was chasing our yearling Doe and she got tangled in barb wire and cut her leg down to the bone, I had to leave the computer again and doctor the goats poor leg, other minor interferences were going on while I was trying to type, I tried to be clear, but when I read your post this morning, I could see you missed my point altogether. I was not clear after all...sorry.
Bro Ben explained it very well. Truly saved people persevere, and religious but not saved people fall away so to speak or depart from the faith.
[glow=red,2,300]Have a great day sister Sarah! [/glow]
Love, ~ sister Darlene ~
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Post by coveredinharmony on Feb 24, 2009 9:48:39 GMT -5
((nods)) I'm realizing now that I should have put quotes around "saved." I mean that someone can go through the entire Christian life without being saved, but in the end go to hell anyway, because their hearts were not regenerated. Sorry for the confusion
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Post by benshelpmeet on Feb 24, 2009 9:58:17 GMT -5
That's correct! Don't worry sister...about the confussion ....someone out there needed this issue explain clearly to them, and our dialog was helpful to them. Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. [glow=red,2,300]Love,[/glow] ~ sister Darlene ~
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Post by brobob on Mar 24, 2009 11:19:06 GMT -5
This reminds me of an article that one of our local churches of christ ran in the newspaper that in essence said if your church does not have the name of "christ" (or at least their version of Christ) in it, it cannot be a truly "christian" church (as they would define it). I read that and pointed out ot my wife that they are walking a fine line between orthodoxy and being a cult...and falling toward the latter with those statements. I have often told folks if a church says they are the "only true church"...chances are they are a cult.
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Post by benshelpmeet on Mar 24, 2009 12:00:01 GMT -5
Bro Bob,
This reminds me of a Mennonite group around here called Holderman Mennonites. They believe those who will go to heaven are either Holdermans already or will become Holderman Mennonites.
These people live a few towns over from here and they shop in our town...mostly we see them at Wal Mart, but I've come across them in other places too. I smile and say hello and they ignore me. If they see us first they go the other way. My girls and I dress in modest dresses and wear a covering, so you think since they dress modestly and cover that we would have something obviously in common, but no...they snub us openly. It always seems really strange to me.
Has anyone else ran into this type of behavior before?
I know most Mennonite and Amish do not think we are saved (they do not call us a brother), and they do not think our christianity is valid, but they do at least treat us nicely and we are considered seekers, and they do find us a worthy project for them to endeavor to disciple us, but these Holderman Mennonites are very strange acting, they do not even give us the time of day.
~ sister Darlene ~
Good to see you again Bro Bob!
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Post by nightingale on Mar 24, 2009 17:25:01 GMT -5
We do not have Mennonites or Amish in my neck of the woods that I know of...but one lady joined our baptist church awhile back and she was raised in an old order Mennonite home with old order Amish grandparents from I believe Canana...she stated that she was not saved until she left the family and heard the gospel for the first time...she says she continues to pray for her family in their unsaved state.... I thought Mennonites believe the same way we did...I guess I was wrong....I don't know, I am just trying to get away from group religions and just be known as a Christian following God's Word Blessings Love Sis Debbie
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Post by maggie on Oct 28, 2009 20:34:44 GMT -5
i lived in lawrenceburg indiana for a while and there were mennonites there, i had on a headcovering and long skirt at the thrift shop and a mennonite lady very sweetly came up to me and asked if i covered because of 1cor 11 , i told her i did cover mostof the time but not always. she invited me to their church, the service was so beautiful and there was dinner after church. they were all very welcoming and loving people. i enjoyed it but we moved back to tenn. right after.
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