Post by Brother Ben on Nov 7, 2009 11:12:22 GMT -5
From time to time, I rework the order of this topic. This is my most recent effort.
Let me start by saying that I was a pretribulation rapture believer for many years until I was challenged to dig into the scriptures myself without commentaries and books on the pretrib rapture. I also want to state that I have not read any books on "prewrath rapture." Upon studying these verses, I found the sequence of events for pretrib could not be justified without moving them out of place and splitting the rapture in two, pretrib and posttrib, which has absolutely no clear scriptural example.
First we must address a concept, namely, the first and second resurrection mentioned in the Revelation. The Bible says:
1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Rev 20:4 ¶ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
We see from scripture that those already dead IN Christ are the first resurrection. They are not to mistaken with those who are part of the second resurrection who will go to the Great White Throne judgement and then be cast into the lake of fire forever.
Rev 20:11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God..."
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Those of the first resurrection will be at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb with those who were alive and remained to the Rapture.
Now let's look at the rapture:
1Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
So we see that at the last trump, with the shout of the archangel, we which are alive and remain shall be caught up after those who have experienced the first resurrection. Question: What is the significance of the phrases, "at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound", "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God,"
If the trump or trumpet of God is refered to as "the last trump," then logic demands that there must be at least a first trump or more in order for the last to be last, make sense? Question: Are there any trumpets associated with the last days? Of course their are, the Seven Trumpets of the Revelation.
Rev 8:1 ¶ And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
There are the Trumpets of the Revelation, we learn about them from chapters 8 through 11. So, is there a picture of the rapture after chapter 11? Yes, read on:
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed [are] the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
There is your first resurrection. Then, the rapture:
Rev 14:14 ¶ And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
This episode is following the blowing of the "last trump(et)" of God. We see it here:
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Rev 11:15 ¶ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Notice that the "mystey of God should be finished," after the blowing of the seventh, (last,) trumpet. What is this mystery?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
The Lord does not want us to be ignorant, blindness is happened to the people of Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Until the last Gentile believer is born again, God holds back that last trumpet call. However, when the fulness, the last convert is born again, the mystery is finished and the alive believers are called out AFTER, those were dead and preceded us.
But this means we will go through some of the tribulation, I thought we were going to miss it and God's children are not subject to wrath. This is true we are not subject to wrath, the bible teaches us:
1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
But what about tribulation? Surely, we won,t experience tribulation. But that is not what the bible teaches. Look:
Jhn 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Rom 5:3 And not only [so], but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
1Th 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Tribulation has been the official stamp and the church of the blood-bought bride for the last 2000 years. Have you read the Martyr's Mirror? Do you know what went on behind the Iron Curtain? Do you know what's going on in China? In the Muslim countries? Those believers will laugh when you tell them we won't see tribulation, it is part of their everyday life.
However, we must make a clear distinction between tribulation and wrath.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
When the wrath came, the dead, the servents, the prophets, etc., are being judged and receiving reward, The Bema seat judgement.
Rev 14:17 ¶ And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Notice this happens immediately after the first harvest of verses 14-16.
Is there Old Testament witness?
Isa 26:19 Thy dead [men] shall live, [together with] my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew [is as] the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
The first resurrection:
Isa 26:20 ¶ Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
The call for God's people to enter into his divine protection, IMPORTANTLY, for a little moment until the indignation be overpast.
Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
The time of God's wrath. Notice the beleivers went out prior.
So why is the short time important?
Zec 11:8 Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.
Three shepherds that the Lord abhors, the devil, the antichrist, and the false prophet. They shall be destroyed during the time of God's wrath which lasts 30 days.
Daniel spoke of this 30 day period. We know that the last half of Daniels 70th week is 3 and 1/2 years, also called 1260 days, but notice what Daniel said:
Dan 12:11 And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
1290 - 1260 = 30 days.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Israel is hidden, saw the nail prints in Christ's hands when he came back for the first resurrection and rapture, and spends 30 days repenting and being saved. I know these passages are long, but please read on.
Zec 12:10 ¶ And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.
Zec 13:1 ¶ In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
Zec 13:2 ¶ And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, [that] I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
Zec 13:8 And it shall come to pass, [that] in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off [and] die; but the third shall be left therein.
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It [is] my people: and they shall say, The LORD [is] my God.
This is what Paul was talking about when he said:
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
This is after the seventh, last, trumpet. Again:
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Even the O.T. prophets saw it in types and shadows, but God did not hide it from them.
Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
This is my study so far. Please feel free to ask any questions as I am still on a journey through all of this.
Submitted in Christian brotherhood,
Ben
Let me start by saying that I was a pretribulation rapture believer for many years until I was challenged to dig into the scriptures myself without commentaries and books on the pretrib rapture. I also want to state that I have not read any books on "prewrath rapture." Upon studying these verses, I found the sequence of events for pretrib could not be justified without moving them out of place and splitting the rapture in two, pretrib and posttrib, which has absolutely no clear scriptural example.
First we must address a concept, namely, the first and second resurrection mentioned in the Revelation. The Bible says:
1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Rev 20:4 ¶ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
We see from scripture that those already dead IN Christ are the first resurrection. They are not to mistaken with those who are part of the second resurrection who will go to the Great White Throne judgement and then be cast into the lake of fire forever.
Rev 20:11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God..."
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Those of the first resurrection will be at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb with those who were alive and remained to the Rapture.
Now let's look at the rapture:
1Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
So we see that at the last trump, with the shout of the archangel, we which are alive and remain shall be caught up after those who have experienced the first resurrection. Question: What is the significance of the phrases, "at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound", "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God,"
If the trump or trumpet of God is refered to as "the last trump," then logic demands that there must be at least a first trump or more in order for the last to be last, make sense? Question: Are there any trumpets associated with the last days? Of course their are, the Seven Trumpets of the Revelation.
Rev 8:1 ¶ And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
There are the Trumpets of the Revelation, we learn about them from chapters 8 through 11. So, is there a picture of the rapture after chapter 11? Yes, read on:
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed [are] the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
There is your first resurrection. Then, the rapture:
Rev 14:14 ¶ And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
This episode is following the blowing of the "last trump(et)" of God. We see it here:
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Rev 11:15 ¶ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Notice that the "mystey of God should be finished," after the blowing of the seventh, (last,) trumpet. What is this mystery?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
The Lord does not want us to be ignorant, blindness is happened to the people of Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Until the last Gentile believer is born again, God holds back that last trumpet call. However, when the fulness, the last convert is born again, the mystery is finished and the alive believers are called out AFTER, those were dead and preceded us.
But this means we will go through some of the tribulation, I thought we were going to miss it and God's children are not subject to wrath. This is true we are not subject to wrath, the bible teaches us:
1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
But what about tribulation? Surely, we won,t experience tribulation. But that is not what the bible teaches. Look:
Jhn 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Rom 5:3 And not only [so], but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
1Th 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Tribulation has been the official stamp and the church of the blood-bought bride for the last 2000 years. Have you read the Martyr's Mirror? Do you know what went on behind the Iron Curtain? Do you know what's going on in China? In the Muslim countries? Those believers will laugh when you tell them we won't see tribulation, it is part of their everyday life.
However, we must make a clear distinction between tribulation and wrath.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
When the wrath came, the dead, the servents, the prophets, etc., are being judged and receiving reward, The Bema seat judgement.
Rev 14:17 ¶ And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Notice this happens immediately after the first harvest of verses 14-16.
Is there Old Testament witness?
Isa 26:19 Thy dead [men] shall live, [together with] my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew [is as] the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
The first resurrection:
Isa 26:20 ¶ Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
The call for God's people to enter into his divine protection, IMPORTANTLY, for a little moment until the indignation be overpast.
Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
The time of God's wrath. Notice the beleivers went out prior.
So why is the short time important?
Zec 11:8 Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.
Three shepherds that the Lord abhors, the devil, the antichrist, and the false prophet. They shall be destroyed during the time of God's wrath which lasts 30 days.
Daniel spoke of this 30 day period. We know that the last half of Daniels 70th week is 3 and 1/2 years, also called 1260 days, but notice what Daniel said:
Dan 12:11 And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
1290 - 1260 = 30 days.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Israel is hidden, saw the nail prints in Christ's hands when he came back for the first resurrection and rapture, and spends 30 days repenting and being saved. I know these passages are long, but please read on.
Zec 12:10 ¶ And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.
Zec 13:1 ¶ In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
Zec 13:2 ¶ And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, [that] I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
Zec 13:8 And it shall come to pass, [that] in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off [and] die; but the third shall be left therein.
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It [is] my people: and they shall say, The LORD [is] my God.
This is what Paul was talking about when he said:
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
This is after the seventh, last, trumpet. Again:
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Even the O.T. prophets saw it in types and shadows, but God did not hide it from them.
Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
This is my study so far. Please feel free to ask any questions as I am still on a journey through all of this.
Submitted in Christian brotherhood,
Ben