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Post by Brother Ben on Aug 17, 2004 23:34:12 GMT -5
When approaching a subject like music you are going to get 100 answers based 100 opinions. Is there any authoratative principle wherewith we can be instructed? How about this, "Let my cry come near before thee, O LORD: give me understanding according to thy word. " Ps. 119:169 I like the rest of you have my "preferences," but we all need to allow God to put our preferences on the anvil of God's word and see how much pounding they can take. Consider the following scriptures and the principles behind them.
"Can two walk together, except they be agreed?" Amos 3:3
"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty." II Cor. 6:13-18
Types of music is a suface issue. Jazz, rock, country, etc. However, we need to make our decisions based on eternal principles. The bible never says, "thou shalt not rock!" neither does it say, "thou shalt not smoke!" Why do (most) christians condemn cigarette smoking? Because it violates the principle, "...for ye are the temple of the living God" The above scriptures teach us that the type of music needs to be associated with it's root. Some questions to consider: 1. Where did we get rock, rap, country, etc.? 2. Did it come from the church (not denomination, but from the blood bought, virgin bride of Christ?) 3. Is their any evil associated with rock music? Country? Rap? 4. Are we obeying the spirit behind the bible principle, "Abstain from all appearance of evil." I Thess. 5:22 NOTE: It didn't say abstain from the very evil, drunkenness, adultry, etc. it said abstain from that which appears to be the evil. 5. Do rock, country, etc. musicians sing about drunkenness, adultry, Satanism, violence, etc. 6. Is Christian rock, country, rap, etc. based on their types of music? 7. To the casual observer does it appear to be the same music? NOTE: Some one might say, well I'm going to trick them into hearing the gospel! Great idea, right!? Wrong. Paul said, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?" Rom. 6:1
Don't read the wrong message into my post. I am not saying if one listens to the wrong kind of music they are not saved. But, however, if one gets into the habit of listening to that which has evil associations, will it not corrupt. "Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners." I Cor. 15:33
Are we experiencing powerful significant revival throughtout our denominations in America today?
Why not?
What have we brought into the house of the Lord/the ministry of the Lord?
"But they set their abominations in the house, which is called by my name, to defile it." Jer. 32:34
If the principles of this message doesn't make you flinch in the least bit then disregard, but consider the typical music of our day then consider the following:
When I survey the wondrous cross On which the Prince of Glory died My richest gain I count but loss And pour contempt on all my pride
Forbid it Lord that I should boast Save in the death of Christ my God All the vain things that charm me most I sacrificed them to His blood
See from Hid head His hands His feet Sorrow and love flow mingled down Did ere such love and sorrow meet Or thorns compose so rich a crown
Were the whole realm of nature mine that were a present far too small Love so amazing so divine Demands my soul my life my all
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Post by Brother Ben on Aug 22, 2004 11:54:55 GMT -5
Dear Friends, There has been many requests from people wanting to know more about problems with contemporary Christian music, Christian rock, Southern gospel music, etc. Here is a link to an excellent article put out by Bill Gothard. You'll find this very scriptural and informative. Bro. Ben www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/7895/beatrock.htm
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Post by Brother Ben on Aug 22, 2004 13:06:19 GMT -5
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Post by sherri on Sept 1, 2004 23:46:13 GMT -5
Hi there, more advice needed. If dh loves contemporary christian music, and i'd rather not have it on around me or the kids, how would i aproach that issue in love without *leading* so to speak? Or get around bringing it up all together? Is it ok to listen to it for the sake of keeping our marriage united? Sherri
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Post by Brother Ben on Sept 3, 2004 3:21:11 GMT -5
Hi there, more advice needed. If dh loves contemporary christian music, and i'd rather not have it on around me or the kids, how would i aproach that issue in love without *leading* so to speak? Or get around bringing it up all together? Is it ok to listen to it for the sake of keeping our marriage united? Sherri, Let me say by way of introduction to this question, that when I first got saved, I thought I'd just start listening to Christian rock, etc. Strangely though, Darlene didn't like it. I, at first, did't see anything wrong with it, but then again I had a powerful attachment to music. Before being saved, I was very into rock music and even sang in a heavy metal band. The Lord in His goodness, put the bug in the listening ear, my dear wife, and she helped the old hard headed sinner to wake up. Darlene never made a struggle over the issue, but in retrospect, I recall she just said something along the lines of, "There is just something about all that stuff (CCM) something doesn't seem right." We were new Christians and she didn't know any scripture on the issue, but her spirit was sensitive. Praise God. So we found some music we both liked, which was gospel quartets, and melodious types of music. This was in actuality the healing balm that accompanied in my deliverance from all that rot. I would recommend a similar approach. When addressing your husband, in respect of his position, try to introduce the using/studying Bible principles associated with any topic whether it be music, giving, or whatever. Ask, is there anything about this music that associates with worldly music? Are there any Bible verses about these associations. Do you see the approach? That is how Darlene and I have made many dicisions about the standards we personally have. I am in agreement about concern for children. A wise man of God once said, "What the parents do in moderation, the children will do in excess." Boy! that scared us. We only had one child the first time we heard that quote, but we have pasted that one to forefront of our memory. I strongly recommend getting ahold of very good, godly, melodious music. It all doesn't have to be the Christian equivalent to symphony, but it does need to exhalt the Lord and put a new song in the heart. I love melodious symphony type music, and I also still like some of the men's quartets, i.e., Let us have a little talk with Jesus. Balance is the key. I'm not talking about a balance between CCM and melodious, but between strong, doctrinal, hymns, i.e., When I Survey the Wonderous Cross, powerful soul stirring songs like, 'I Thank God for the Lighthouse,' and lighter, fun, gospel songs like, 'I'll Fly Away.' Here are a couple of links to sites where you can get 'good stuff!' (You really can't get it at the Christian Book store, they are trying to sell you CCM, because it is a money making sceme. That is another one of those backlying principles which determine why I don't like the CCM crowd." www.faithmusicmissions.com/www.oldchristianmusic.com/www.asaphmusic.com/This is not a blanket endorsement, but these sites are pretty conservative and I personally know the brothers who run Asaph music. May the Lord bless you, as you look to bless Him in this VERY important area of Christian life. Bro. Ben Be careful little ears what you hear, be careful little ears what you hear, for the Father up above, is looking down in love, so be careful little ears what you hear. Out of the mouth of babes!
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Post by hszoo on Sept 3, 2004 12:37:14 GMT -5
Bro. Ben, I just have a few questions and a comment. I'd really appreciate your input.
I've listened to a lot of music over the years. At age 52, that means I've really heard probably more than my share! LOL Over time, I've discovered a few things. One is that the very word "contemporary" simply means something occurred during the same time we live in. If this were 1715, contemporary things would have to do with events, person, or anything else of that time, including whatever music was written then. I suppose I just never thought that music of the late 1800s or early to middle 1900s was any more sanctified than music from any other time period. It was all written to appeal to the people of the time according to whatever other music was being played.
For instance, "Just As I Am" was written in 1835 and is a waltz, the style of music popular for that era. Gospel quartet music began back in the 20s and 30s, when barbershop quartets were popular. "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" is an early African-American song with ties to the slave era and it throws back to tunes from continental Africa. "What Child is This?" is from a 16th century melody known as "Greensleeves" which has nothing to do with the Lord at all. Some songs in the hymnals are ragtime, which was a bouncy beat from the early 20th century, and merely brought into the gospel music scene by gospel music singers. Of course, we know some church music is nothing more than bluegrass based. Some even has its roots in Hebrew music from way far back!
I guess my question is this: What makes any one style of music any more sanctified than another? It all has its roots in some kind of popular music, even if the popularity of that style has passed. And I suppose another question would be: Isn't the message of the words more important that so many scattered notes on a sheet or any particular rhythm, since even the Baptist Hynmal covers such a wide diversity of both?
I also have a comment about any song, regardless of the origin of the tune. Songs such as the one below (this was written in 1914) are not Scripturally sound. They are "feel good" songs, but there is no basis in Scripture to tell us that Jesus ever changes and grows sweeter. He was always sweet and remains so today and forever. It's not Jesus that changes, it's us.
To me, any song from any era, even today, needs to have firm Scriptural foundations and be doctrinally correct. Songs teach us and our children much, and I'd hate to think they are teaching bad doctrine but we listen to them because they are "old".
SWEETER AS THE DAYS GO BY
O the love of Jesus means so much to me, Keeps my pathway shining, keeps me pure and free; More and more I praise Him, for He seems to be Sweeter as the days go by.
Refrain
Sweeter as the days go by, Sweeter as the moments fly; He’s always drawing nearer, And to me His love is dearer, Sweeter as the days go by.
Precious, loving Savior, all along the way, Words of cheer and comfort I have heard Him say; And He grows more precious to my soul each day, Sweeter as the days go by.
Refrain
He, I know, will keep me, He will hold me fast Till my earthly trials be forever past; He will be, until I see His face at last, Sweeter as the days go by.
Refrain
Yet, here is one written in 1990 that's pure worship and Scripturally sound.
Hallelujah, Hallelujah, for our Lord God Almighty reigns
Hallelujah, Hallelujah, for our Lord God Almighty reigns
Hallelujah
(chorus) Holy, Holy Are You Lord God Almighty Worthy is the Lamb Worthy is the Lamb You are holy
That's the whole entire song and it's brought tears to my eyes and made me fall on my face in worship more times than I can count. It points only to the Lord, and not to us at all.
So, how can we dismiss all "modern" or contemporary music as being devilish? Does God dismiss it all or does He hate it all? Or maybe is He pleased with contemporary music that points to Him in worship and praise, lines up with what He's told us in His pure word, and takes the focus off of ourselves? If we read every word of every older hymn, is God pleased with all of those? If "contemporary" music offends Him, then it surely always did regardless of the era it was written in. A waltz would have been just as offensive as what we hear today because it WAS the contemporary music of its time. And a Hebrew song such as "Hava Nagila" would also have been hated by Him even though it is a praise song and the literal translation of the whole song is
Let us rejoice and be glad
Repeat
Let us sing
Awaken brethren With a cheerful heart.
Words straight out of the Psalms! But music contemporary in its own time, for sure. These words were set to music shortly after WWI. These days, the song is sometimes sung in English pubs as a beer drinking song, but in Israel it's a praise song still.
Do you see what I'm trying so feebly to say here? Have I stopped making sense yet?
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Post by sherri on Sept 3, 2004 15:42:33 GMT -5
I love praise and worship. I think despite the music background (it's not blairing guitars, and untamed drums) of usually light guitar and some drums, it's just fine to listen to at anytime. So long as the words are sound. AS far as 'christian hard rock', i've heard the hard rock. a few songs will be scripturally sound, or a few words in a few songs...but for the most part they sing words that offer no praise the Jesus, but sing nothing that would go against Him either, it's a gray area. Out of deep conviction, i stay away from the gray as much as possible. I wont even go to the mall to window shop. Too much worldliness, and then the horriffic posters at Victoria Secret...~*BREATHE SHERRI*~ Anyway i digress... I'll include the wrods to some of my faves, and let ya'll pick over them.
HEART OF WORSHIP Verse 1 When the music fades All is stripped away And I simply come Longing just to bring Something that's of worth That will bless your heart
Bridge I'll bring You more than a song For a song in itself Is not what You have required You search much deeper within Through the way things appear You're looking into my heart
Chorus I'm coming back to the heart of worhip And it's all about You It's all about You, Jesus I'm sorry, Lord, for the thing I've made it When it's all about You It's all about You, Jesus
Verse 2 King of endless worth No one could express How much you deserve Though I'm weak and poor All I have is yours Every single breath
*Bridge* *Chorus* *Chorus*
I'll bring you more than a song For a song in itself is not what you have required You search much deeper within From the way things apear You're looking into my heart!
I'm coming back to the heart of worhip And it's all about You It's all about You, Jesus I'm sorry, Lord, for the thing I've made it When it's all about You It's all about You, Jesus...
ALL IN ALL
You are my strength when I am weak You are the treasure that I seek You are my all in all
Seeking You as a precious jewel Lord to give up, I’d be a fool You are my all in all
Jesus, [Precious] Lamb of God, worthy is Your name Jesus, [You're the] Lamb of God, worthy is Your name
Taking my sin, my cross, my shame Rising again, I bless Your name You are my all in all
When I fall down, You pick me up When I am dry, You fill my cup You are my all in all
GOD OF WONDERS
Lord of all creation Of water, earth and sky, The heavens are Your tabernacle, Glory to the Lord on high.
God of wonders beyond our galaxy, You are holy, holy! The universe declares Your majesty, You are holy, holy, Lord of heaven and earth... (2x echo)
Early in the morning, I will celebrate the light. When I stumble in the darkness, I will call Your Name by light. Hallelujah (guys) To the Lord of heaven and earth... (girls) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Anyhoo, hope you guys are blessed by these lyrics as i was...
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Post by glenda on Sept 3, 2004 15:47:42 GMT -5
;D ;D Thank you Sherri for those wonderful song words. ;D ;D We could all use a good uplifting song every now and then.....
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Post by benshelpmeet on Sept 12, 2004 19:09:01 GMT -5
Ann, To answer your question first I would agree that music should be doctrinally sound. The beat is the distinguishing factor here. The rock, country music beat, pop, punk, rap, etc. If the words are good but the beat is the same as the corrupeted music then it's bad. Try taking the words out all together listen to the beat. When I choose my music I listen to the beat, and it's already been stated the words have to be correct. Everything contemporary is not bad just be careful as with any music even hymns that the beat is correct. Here is an excelent web site.... www.dccsa.com/greatjoy/music.htm PLEASE read the whole article down toward the bottom they discuss CCM. I will try to find more articles on the beat. Here is an interesting article... www.av1611.org/question/cqsaved.html Here is another one in response to the thought that they used to use worldly music for hymns in the old days. www.wayoflife.org/fbns/didlutheruse.htm Please make sure to read the whole article. I hope this is been helpful.
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Post by funnyd on Sept 13, 2004 17:15:44 GMT -5
I love praise and worship... The songs you mentioned in your post are all part of our repertoire at church and are beautiful songs. To me, music is a language just like English, Español, and so forth. It is a means of expression. Some of the tunes that have become classic hymns also had less than noble origins, but with the right words, they have become cherished expressions of our faith in God. A couple centuries back, the music we know as hymns were "contemporary" in their day. Now will this mean that "Our God is an Awesome God" will be revered 100 years from now as "Great Is thy Faithfulness?" Only time will tell. Truth is, I love both the classic hymns as well as praise & worship. We played "It Is Well with My Soul" yesterday, and anyone who can't feel the power in singing about the trumpet sounding and our Lord descending to earth turning our faith to sight is simply not paying attention. But it is also exciting to see a congregation singing "Let everything that has breath, praise the Lord!" with great enthusiasm, which they also did yesterday. As far as CCM goes, it has amassed a lot of critics in the last decade (myself included). The last CCM concert I attended was in 1994 when my bride and I went to see Michael W. Smith. We both left disappointed. The only real Christian song he sang during that whole set was "Thy Word". Most of the other stuff was off his "Change Your World" album which, although full of postive messages, was not exactly a Christian album. It is exacly like old Tom & Jerry cartoons. Wholesome? Certainly! Christian? Certainly not! Even one of CCM's own, Steve Camp, attempted to help reform the "industry" at one point several years, but was apparantly stymied in effecting change, and has kinda dropped into obscurity. I think the biggest problem is that CCM started out great in the late 70s and early 80s, but as it blossomed in popularity, it started making money, which naturally brought in artists with less than pure ambitions, and the backsliding began. If Southern Gospel acts has acheived that level of noteriety, they would've have suffered the same fate, methinks. This may be drawing a fine point, and reasonable people may disagree, but I believe the problem is not in the orignal form of CCM, but what CCM became. It saddens me to see Christians flock to something that has become spiritually empty, simply because it is supposedly an acceptable alternative to secular rock. It sure didn't have to be this way. - David, who apologizes for the length of this piece
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Post by Brother Ben on Sept 13, 2004 19:32:04 GMT -5
Let me start by saying that there are songs out there in the "contemporary scene" that are good songs. However, my issue would be in the beat. David, you said, "Some of the tunes that have become classic hymns also had less than noble origins, but with the right words, they have become cherished expressions of our faith in God" Right words can never be a total fix. The illustration I would use would be if you changed the label of a beer bottle to "Saved Folks" brand beer, would that sanctify the content? Of course not. The rhythem of music has been used throughout human history to stimulate and move people. Notice what Evangelist David Cloud said in his article about the accusation that the reformer Martin Luther used tavern music for his hymns, "LUTHER RARELY BORROWED FROM SECULAR MUSIC, AND WHEN HE DID HE CHANGED IT TO REMOVE WORLDLY INFLUENCES. Luther carefully changed the music to fit the Christian message. Of his 37 chorales, only one came directly from a secular song, and it was later replaced by a new tune he had written himself. "By avoiding dance tunes and 'de-rhythming' other songs, Luther achieved a chorale with a marked rhythm, but without the devices that would remind the people of the secular world. Luther chose only those tunes which would best lend themselves to sacred themes and avoided the vulgar, 'rollicking drinking songs' and dance tunes. He carefully tested the melodies he considered, and when necessary molded them into suitability" (Robert Harrell, Martin Luther: His Music, His Message, 1980). " You see, Luther saw that there was a association between drinking and "rollicking dance songs."
I have heard great songs by performers like Michael Card, Steve Green, etc. however, I cannot put a blanket endorsement on their music because it all does not pass the test of a gentle and melodious spirit due to the rhythem used in some of the "pepped up" songs.
As far as the reform that Steve Camp tried to stir up, I'm afraid he was destined for failure because he neglected to follow the clear bible principle, "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. " II Cor. 6:17,18
When man puts his hand to something, in time, it is going to suffer corruption. Great movements, churches, and ministries have, over time, become that which it's followers could not be a part of. I am not judging the motives of the origins of the CCM movement, but I'm afraid that we are reaping the decayed state of product. There are some who still produce songs that honor the Lord, but the CCM atmosphere has a corrupting influence. "Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners." I Cor 15:33
I do not want to demonize the CCM industry more than any other questionable area of the Christian experience. I, however, am a watchman on the wall. I see so much corruption in the, so-called, Christian entertainment industry that it makes me weary. I walked into the "Christian" book store in my town one day. As I walked through the door I lifted up my eyes to see an immodest women, girating her pelvis, and dancing around as she performed her "Christian" song for me (it was a music video.) The Spirit of God within me rose up and it was all I could do to not go up to the counter and rebuke them for this wickedness.
Where are we leading our children? Why no revival in America? What is the systemic problem with our American version of Christianity? Why are we suprised that the new bible version groups come out with a new version a coupel of times a year.
Let me conclude with the sad commentary recorded for us in the Book of the Judges of Israel.
"And also all that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the LORD, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel. And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim: And they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods, of the gods of the people that [were] round about them, and bowed themselves unto them, and provoked the LORD to anger." Judges 2:10-12
Ben
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Post by funnyd on Sept 13, 2004 20:25:48 GMT -5
Let me start by saying that there are songs out there in the "contemporary scene" that are good songs. However, my issue would be in the beat... Brother Ben, I truly respect your position, but admittedly, this touches a subject close to my heart, and as I said, "Reasonable people may disagree..." Where are we leading our children? Why no revival in America? What is the systemic problem with our American version of Christianity? Why are we suprised that the new bible version groups come out with a new version a coupel of times a year... I fully understand your frustration about "Christian" stores. Our local Zondervan stores (assuming that's where you went) seem to devote as much floor space for trinkets as there is for Bibles and Bible study aids. What is wrong with this picture? Although I am not a KJV-only person (which may be just about the only other area where we might be in disagreement), I do scratch my head at the need for a new version of the Bible every year. Of the versions that have emerged in the last decade or so, there are only 2 that I think are worthwhile (ESV and HCSB, but that's a long story for another time). The rest seem to be there because a publishing company put them there. And don't get me started on the gender-neutral thing! I try to keep my frustrations to myself, in order not to cause divisions in our Body (1Co 1:10~13). Bro. Ben, it is wonderful that there are folks like you out there who have many of the same concerns I do and can share with. It is good to know I'm not alone out here. - David
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Post by sherri on Sept 14, 2004 2:05:31 GMT -5
David, Bro. Ben, thanks for both of your views on this subject. I do like what u said very much, Bro Ben about us as Christians needing to be gentle and melodious. I think of my daughter rocking to some of that "Christian" music out there. And i feel sick to my stomach! One Christian band sings all about how he's in love with this beautiful, blond haired, blued eyed girl with a flower tatoo. I would never want to instill such corrupt standards concerning a womans appearance, and how men flock to her. Our Christian book store does not play music videos, although they do sell the CD's to some of these artists that have forgotten their first love. My daughter loves to listen to Mommy sing every sunday the Praise & Worship songs, there is a beat, but certianly NOT one that makes anyone want to girate their pelvis, or jump up n down, lol!! I have been taking her into the service with me for 6 mos now, proably longer than that actually. I have not seen anything in her behavior that would worry me. She still loves when i play all those wonderful classics sung to a melodious piano. For us, taking out praise and worship music is not an option at this time. We all love it in our family, and so long as God gets our hearts and our praise during it, we have no problems with it. I think it's great that you sheild your children from all that worldly music, i know you will reap great rewards for you decisions. And like you David, we don't hold to the KJV only-isms... DH and i only use KJV for our everyday use. But as far as reading the Bible just for fun everyday as a story to all of us, we like to read from a newer version. The only problem i have in doing this is that my children will not get used to reading and understanding the KJV for everyday use either. And the only reason i read newer versions is so i grasp each concept without having to reread stuff over and over again. I can understand it, but it takes more decoding than to read a newer translation. I don't like that in reading a newer version i am crippling my children from grasping the KJV to it's fullest each time they read it. Sherri
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Post by Brother Ben on Sept 14, 2004 8:04:16 GMT -5
I was driving into work this morning and the Lord prompted me to make this post. Though I have strong stands on issues, it should never be confused with my perspective on personal relationships. I have Christian friends and co-workers from all kinds of Christian denominations and doctrinal perspectives.
When I state my defense of an issue, I fully mean every word and probably even more. However, as my little girl said to Darlene and I one day, "I love people." Now, that was sweet. We need to learn from those simple words.
Sherri, If you don't want to confuse your children between version, then just read them great bible stories from a bible story book, this way they will know this is not the bible.
Ben
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Post by sherri on Sept 14, 2004 19:24:27 GMT -5
Thank you Bro Ben. Its a funny thing about the bible story books. My dd just doesn't like to sit still for them, but when i read the Bible she comes right up to me on the couch and sits oh so still to hear me read it. She asks questions and really interact with the full Word. How can i substitute the Bible for the story books? I can't lol! Not if she preferes the real thing, lol!! My dd is amazing sometimes. Actually, as i'm typing this my dd is pulling me away from the comp so i will read her the Bible. She's got it in her lap already. Blessings to you all Sherri PS~I never took any offence to your words Bro Ben, i think it's great to see people stick to their guns when the LORD has convicted them. too many get caught in the undercurrent of peer pressure. ( although i'm hardly a peer at merely 22 yrs) I agree with what u say competely. Music is a very serious issue, and it's great that your wife and children have someone who watches over them so diligently, and protects them from the snares of the world. Amen Bro! Pleae don't let our decision to include praise n worship in our music selection discourage you. And besides, if God doesn't like it in our life, He will convict us in His time, right? LOL
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