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Post by George on Aug 30, 2005 21:05:26 GMT -5
Amen Robin, you said the proverbial mouthful there! I am one who believes I ought look my best when attending church services. There are many reasons for this and I do not have any quarrel whatever with someone who holds to not wearing a tie out of personal conviction as long as that conviction is maintained throughout the person's life.
Let me explain a little. In our Church if one is a teacher (of Sunday School or is going to teach from the platform or something similar to that), he is required to wear a tie. If one acts as an usher or is one of the deacons working at The Lord's Supper he must wear a tie. If one is singing in front of the Church, whether it be special music or in the choir he must wear a tie.
When I speak of holding the conviction equally there are many men in my Church who on Wednesday night or Sunday evening service do not wear the tie. Only on Sunday morning. That I find to be incredibly wrong and even possibly hypocritical. If they wear the tie to look their best for God in the Sunday morning service is not God present in the other ones also?
We have some men who work regularly as ushers and also some of the deacons who, as a sign they do not want to be bothered to collect the offering or anything of that nature will come to Church on Sunday evening without the tie so they won't be allowed to work that service. This I also find wrong. To me things of this nature are done to be seen of many men and not to be pleasing to The Lord.
Now there is a major exception to this and I must say I had a very hard time dealing with it for a long time. In the ministry of Reformers Unanimous I work with drug addicts, alcoholics, pornographers, attempted murders and things of that nature. Very often they are on parole or probation. If they come to a meeting where the man in charge is wearing a coat and tie or even if all the other men are wearing a coat and tie, they will run. These men and women often equate the wearing of coats and ties with law enforcement officials. To that end, when we attend Reformers Unanimous and even when I teach and preach in Reformers Unanimous, I do not wear a coat and tie and actually we dress quite casually. I do wear a button up shirt, very often long sleeved, with a clean white t-shirt underneath. As I said, I felt guilty over that for a long time and still am not that comfortable with it. However it is the standard of the International Ministry of Reformers Unanimous on Friday night. I do wear clean clothing and my shirts and trousers are always pressed.
There are a lot of liberal Churches in my area. A lot of pentecostal and charismatic Churches as well as the so-called non-denominational (ecumenical) Churches. They do not wear coats and ties to Church.Tthe women wear all sorts of gaudy outfits often with low-cut tops and skirts or dresses that are way too short. One of the few ways to distinguish them from most of the folks in our Church is by the manner of dress. My goodness, in other churches they have Awana leaders and Sunday School teachers who look no better than a lot of the street people I talk to. If they want to come to our Church that way we will not keep them out but they cannot dress like they do in the other Churches and hold any kind of position of leadership.
Let me tell you a little story I heard somewhere recently. Two men were out soul-winning. They knocked on one door and were greeted by a man with very long hair (about down to his waist,) many ear rings and piercings. a tatoo or two and very sloppily dressed. They introduced themselves and invited him to the local independent, fundamental Baptist Church next Sunday. He told them he would love to go but couldn't. They inquired as to why. He told them unashamedly and rather proudly that he was the YOUTH PASTOR of the Southern Baptist church right down the street! This is one of the primary reasons we wear coats and ties in our Church.
I sincerely believe women should be modestly dressed as well as the men folks. I also believe the use of makeup, hair color and jewelry is not a good thing nor do I find it in keeping with the tenets of the Bible. Since coming to this site I am learning a lot. I know some head-covering Baptists locally. They are the most humble people I know and the love of the Lord is great in them. They set examples a lot of folks could learn a great deal from.
I am enjoying learning from all of you. I very much appreciate your steadfastness to your convictions. It is really too bad a lot of people in my own Church do not hold to doctrine and conviction so strongly. I do not have the option of seeking out another church because mine is the most conservative and fundamental for many miles around. I believe that as long as I hold to my doctrine, which I do the best to obey the doctrines of God's Holy Word, and keep my convictions evenly applied across all areas of my life the others can do what they will.
However, if it ever gets to the point the preacher starts relaxing doctrine or making compromise and I no longer hear a convicting message from he pulpit I will run out of that place as fast as I can.
I will say that I am not unteachable and I do relish the opportunities presented me to learn and to grow in The Lord.
Yours in Christ, George Groce
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Post by restored on Aug 30, 2005 21:30:00 GMT -5
Bro. George,
It's ironic that you should mention those who don't wear ties to all services. We have a list of who is supposed to usher on that day. Many of the men who usher do not wear a tie if they are not ushering in that service. They only wear there suit and tie when they know that they will have to usher. So in other words they only look their best for God when they must be of service to Him. Which I believed we are to always be ready servants to Him. You also mentioned that if you no longer heard a convicting message that you would leave. If (Big If) our pastor preaches a convicting message he usually waters it down before he is done. I even seen him skip over the "keepers at home" part in Titus 2 when he referenced this scripture one day. His wife works outside of the home. Allen did not notice it, but I did because I was paying close attention to see how he would handle a scripture that he did not practice. In our church the standard is usually shorts to the knee for church related activities. On July 3 we had a church picnic at a local park. At the end of the service the pastor said no tank tops and shorts to the knees. Well, one of the prominent members of the church was wearing shorts 6 or more inches above the knee her belly could be seen below her shirt (she's pregnant), and the lady running the activity time was wearing a spaghetti strapped shirt. My little sister who is away from God right now and her unsaved boyfriend was with us that day and they noticed the members not even honoring the pastor and nothing being done. My sister had enough respect to not change into the clothes she had brought with her, because they didn't honor the pastor's wishes. This is my problem with the tie situation is the inconsistencies. I believe and even the Bible would agree that the tie is a small thing compared to immodest dress. I hope I don't sound angry. I am very hurt right now and I want to handle this the way that God would have us to. We have been praying about whether or not God would have us to stay or leave and maybe this is God's way of letting us know. We are still going to handle this with grace, love and respect, no matter where God leads. Just keep praying for us and for us to find God's will and peace in all of this.
In His Service, The Pruetts
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Post by Brother Randy on Aug 30, 2005 21:52:40 GMT -5
. They only wear there suit and tie when they know that they will have to usher. So in other words they only look their best for God when they must be of service to Him. Which I believed we are to always be ready servants to Him.
Dear Sister , I see this as being so inconsistence , Should not the why we dress and live be an all the time thing? Not just something we do when we go to church. I guess this is also another of the reason I left the baptist circles years ago and went the Anabaptist way. That was the one thing that drew to them , was that they lived a real Christians life, a heart felt faith. Our churches are in such sad shape today. We need to pray that God will bring conviction on the church and to the people to change their ways before it is to late.
God Bless you as you take a stand for Him and what is right.
Bro Randy
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Post by George on Aug 30, 2005 23:42:43 GMT -5
Ah sister, it appears to me you have every right to be hurt. My word! The inconsistencies you speak of are scary to me. As you mentioned you had two young people with you. I take it they are no longer children but young adults. What about the children who were there? What kind of message does it send to them when the Pastor lays down rules and some don't have to obey him?
This could start a whole new thread! To me it is downright dangerous to openly show such behaviour and favoritism (I don't think it could be called anything else) when such things happen. This behaviour also teaches the children they don't need to obey people in authority positions.
I remember some years ago when I went to a Church for a bit. The Pastor was a wonderful man. That means he was a nice guy. He was not consistent in his dealings with the Church people and actually was guilty of "using" people. We had a couple in that Church who were rude, overbearing and just downright snobbish. It caught my attention almost immediately. I tried to understand it for a bit but when I could not I left the church.
A few weeks went by and I thought I owed the Pastor an explanation. As it worked out he came to my house that evening.We spent about three hours talking. the husband of this couple was a CPA. Keep that in mind. The two of them acted as if they ran the Church and no effort was made to put an end to it. When I brought this to the pastor's attention he told me he was aware of it but as long as he allowed them to think they ran the Church the man would do all of the Churches financial affairs free of charge. The irony of it all is the Church was a "Church of God." It didn't appear to me things were done in a godly fashion.
Unfortunately it seems such things occur all too often in Churches these days. The situation you are in is terrible and I believe it is most likely an abomination to The Lord.
My word I will be in a lot of prayer for your family.
Yours in Christ, George Groce
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Post by benshelpmeet on Sept 1, 2005 13:02:43 GMT -5
Dearest Heather, I have been so busy lately...The death of my precious Grandfather (Paw Paw ), The Herricane which involved my Grandmother, and my only Uncle directly, my grandmother in Mobile and my uncle in New Orleans. Its bad real bad. We are starting the building of our home (much involved and little time.) We are preparing for the camp meeting.( I still have to make 16 hymn books. )Whew! And school started back. But were having fun! I wanted to respond to a statement you said.... Sis. Darlene Brianna said then let's just move to Tennesse, when she found out her daddy couldn't sing in the choir anymore. I told her that we are not opposed to the idea, but we had to wait upon God to move us if that is what He wants. You are more than welcome here if the Lord leads you here. We would love for you and your family to join us. Also we will be praying for your TV fast. We just determined in our hearts and minds that it was not profitable for our family and a waste of time, and that it was even a negitave influance for our family because it stirred up foolishness in our children. And we got rid of it once and for all. A preacher friend just invited our family to watch a christian move about a christian martyr. We declined because even christian videos/ movies have compromise in them it is subtle alot of times but it is there. for instance are the couples really married in real life? If not they should not even hug eachother. A child once pointed this out and the father ( who is a pastor friend of ours said your right son, thus turning off the movie and he ended up getting rid of his TV all together. There are many other compromises if people would just look. 50 years ago godly preachers preached against TV and its evils. They were talking about the movies we call good. We have gone along way. Now we make excuses for having a VCR and watching ''good videos'' or preaching videos or educational videos. You could listen to a tape or CD and read books. The bible says: 1 Thes 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. We have never regretted our choice to get rid of (our IDOL Dagon we called it) the TV set and the VCR. We do not even want to wet or taste for it again buy watching a so called ''good video'' about a christian martyr. If you get rid of your TV / VCR once and for all you'll never regret it. The Lord will bless you beyond measure. Just like He has done our family and countless others. And about ties in church well the Lord is clearly moving your family the teis being the least of the problems there. It's bad all over. We are baptist and we've always been IFB. But I can truely say I'm ashamed to call myself Independent Fundamental Baptist because they have for the most part turned carnal and libral, I know there are a isolated few good godly ones'' but I do not know where. You and you precious family are in my thoughts and I'm praying. Love, ~ sister Darlene ~
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Post by Brother Randy on Sept 1, 2005 17:50:50 GMT -5
I would just like to add a amen to what Sister Darlene said about the TV, After seeing the affect it was having on our Hannah , 4 at the time, and seeing all the bad things that it allowed into our home we got rid of it and have never regreted it . Exspecially during the winter I will read to Hannah and my wife in the evenings. We just don't have time or a place for it in our lives anymore.It has been over a year now and praise the Lord that He placed the conviction on my heart to do something about it.
Bro Randy
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Post by benshelpmeet on Sept 2, 2005 17:08:38 GMT -5
We have reaped countless benifits from getting rid of the TV and VCR and all its negitive influance. Our children have become so creative and satisfied and helpful and giving to others. And we honestly havent missed it were glad its gone. Hope you and your family are doing well. You are in our thoughts and prayers. I just thought of a question...Remember all the trouble we had with our van? Well we've noticed it is becoming sluggish it seems to be getting worse. Do we need to change the pluggs? We added a gas treatment but its still sluggish. Any advise will help. You can PM Ben. Thank you! Your sister in Christ, ~ Darlene ~
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