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Post by restored on Aug 22, 2005 8:35:09 GMT -5
I was wandering if I could get some help here. We as so many are making many changes in our lives. We obviously don't even look like the same people we were 6 months ago. As I have begun to dress modestly (Christian modest), my DH, Allen, has noticed the need to change some items in his wardrobe. I had quit wearing shorts a few years back, so that was not really an issue. He has also gotten rid of some of his feminine colored shirts. We have been talking about how he still wears his really nice suits and ties and really doesn't look that much different and almost makes me look bad as my clothes are plan and I do not wear make up, jewelry, and with the headcovering my hair is obviously not styled. We feel like the tie is a unnecessary adornment. We feel like it's almost the same as a women's necklace. He still wears a suit coat, nice button up shirt, dress shoes, and pants. Alot of men even wear fancy tie tacks with their ties and isn't this like a form of jewelry? Well because he doesn't want to wear a tie for conviction reasons, he is no longer allowed to usher. I also don't know what this will do to his ability to sing in the choir. My husband has a WONDERFUL voice that he wants to use for God. I was wandering if there are scriptures that we could use to support our convictions? I was also wandering what other men wear? The really hard part about all of this is the message our pastor preach last night. My husband is not one to jump to conclusions, nor does he look quickly for faults in others. He is also not easily offended or sensitive to things people say about him. We both however feel like the message was directly at us. He repeatedly said that dressing a certain way, having or not having a TV, and so on did not make you more spiritual. I agree! He preached on the Pharisee and the Sadducee and we really felt like it was directed at us. Remember we go to a very worldly church, where his wife wears pants, capris, tank tops, skirts barely to the knee, public swimming, very short hair, and I believe you get the picture. Since the pastor thinks these things are okay so does the rest of the church. I am not trying to pick on the pastor's wife here, please don't get me wrong. We are just very discouraged and could use some help. We have not left this church, because Allen has not felt like God wants us to. He feels like maybe we are to be the salt in this church. We are at a lost as what to do. Would appreciate any help. We also had to go to our pastor last night and ask him to tell his son to quite making fun of the headcoverings. His son is the same age as Brianna our oldest.
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Post by George on Aug 22, 2005 11:56:51 GMT -5
My word! The very questions that comes to my mind is, why do you continue to go to that Church? If the Pastor and his wife are willing to make compromises you do not agree with, whether out of personal conviction or for Biblical reasons, I wonder at the level of edification you will receive in your lives. The apostle Paul said,
I believe that to be an admonishment to fellowship with like-minded brethren. Especially when he ended the verse (which I understand was not done by him but added in some many years later) with the statement to let everything be done unto edifying. How can it be edifying to you if the Pastor and his wife, who are the leaders of that Church, are involved in things more worldly than what you accept either by personal conviction or Scriptural insight?
You may be entirely correct in having the feeling that sermon was directed at you. Even if it was not set out to be that way it is certain you took it that way so there is some feeling of uncomfortableness with the message right there. In my way of thinking and understanding a message (sermon or as it is called in some places a challenge) ought to be convicting but not to attempting to convict you to relax the standards you have chosen for your family.
My goodness, it would be far better to home church than to continue in such a place. I really believe you ought give serious consideration to getting out of that place. Believe me since the Pastor already holds those views things will not get better for you.
In my understanding, people ought conform to the image of the Church as set out in the Bible and not the Church relax things to the point of conforming to the worldly and carnal standards of the people. One of the major problems we have in this country today is just that. Churches all over the place are relaxing standards of biblical purity in order to attract crowds rather than preach a message with any kind of conviction in it.
I am certain the brother Preacher can weigh in on this subject better than I. However the things I have stated above are my feelings and understandings about the situation. Yours in Christ, George Groce
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Post by benshelpmeet on Aug 22, 2005 12:08:27 GMT -5
Dear sister Heather, This is so sad, the state of our baptist churches...I'm ashamed to be called baptist, but doctrinally thats what I am. Our menfolk and baby boy wear a white t-shirt with a nice button up over top. In the winter a vest or casual mens suit jacket. This goes well with the plain life style we live. It is a shame your church is so libral and gives you such a hard time for godly living. It's not like your doing something ungodly or dishonoring to the Lord this is how godly christians have always behaved. Librals always have the strangest arguements. A legalist is doing good works and deeds to get themselves to heaven. Oh I made a mistake he spoke of the Pharisee and the Sadducee...I do not think your being a Pharisee and the Sadducee just because you choose to honor the Lord in the things you do. In the days of the Pharisee and the Sadducee's there were true born again christians who honored God with their walk and life the were not looked down apon. This is normal behaviour for a christian. Librals always look down upon and make unkind and wrong statements to those trying to honor the Lord. Their trying to justify their ungodly behaviour. TV watching is sin. Most Christian Videos are sin. ( because they hug or kiss someone who isn't their wife, there are many other reasons not to mention you could be doing better things with your precious time. Shorts are sin. For men or women. Necked leggs are no ones business just your husbands. Short skirts are sin. Tight skirts are sin. Skirts with slits are sin. It is a sin to ware reveling clothes like a ''swim suit''. I have found very few modest ones even ones considered modest. Capries are sin because they are a mans garment. ( like shorts they are just a pair of paints cut off ) Wives in the work place is sin, The bible does not say mothers are to be keepers at home ... It says wives. Libral's like to try and disprove godly living so that their ungodly practices will be justified.Keep living for Jesus sister! Honor God no matter what others say or think. Look up the history of ties. Its interesting. I agree with you, they are unnessary and fancy adornment, We really apreciate not having to dress so fancy and modern. Our men wear pressed, tucked in, manly looking shirts, buttoned up with a t-shirt underneath, a nice pair of slacks, and a nice pair of casual shoes. They look like christian men should. There is no reason to dress so fancy. We have heard All the arguements on this subject, we used to believe in wareing a suit, tie, etc. Now we are free of this. If the wife looks modest, non fancy, so should the men other wise it looks funny. Why shouldnt we just present ourselves like modest christians. I hope this has been of some encouragement and help to you, even though I probably didn't say anything you don't already believe. Have a great day! Love ya sister, ~ Darlene ~
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Post by benshelpmeet on Aug 22, 2005 12:21:52 GMT -5
Dear brother George,
Their is not one preacher family in our area that believe in...
Wives being keepers at home.
True modesty.
No worldly intertainment like having no TV, and other worldly practices.
It is sad but true, and I know this is what is found in most towns across America. What we need is for the Lord to raise up Godly preachers so godly christians will have a place to worship God where their are like- minded people especially the preacher should be on the right track so he can lead the flock.
May the Lord lead His people in these last days.
Your sister, ~ Darlene ~
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Post by Brother Randy on Aug 22, 2005 23:08:19 GMT -5
Sister Heather For the past going on about 15 years I have been dressing plain. The only suit I wear is a plain one, no laples, black dress shoes. on sundays I always wear a long sleeve solid colored button up shirt, white T-shirt, suppenders alot too, I just don't care for belts, plus I think it gives more of a tight fitted look{ my opion}. This is one think that really bothers my wife when men wear thin shirts and no t-shirt. She say if a lady should not wear see though then a man ought not too , which a agree with. I never wear shorts and almost never just a t-shirt. And when it is very hot out I even will wear long sleeve shirt, cotton ones which are much cooler.
I think it is sad that the church has lowered itself to the level of the world. We where going to an Assembly of God for a while, and there blue jeans, shorts and even women coming wearing backless dresses!!! If we don't dress differnent and Godly and have changed lives what do we have that is any differnet then the world? The baptist church I use to go to the women now even though they may wear dresses to church put makeup by the 5 gal buckets{ well that might be stretching it a little but you get the point} and oh my the hair does WOW. In our area out side of our church{Mennonite} which is 35 miles away, there is only the 2by2 which dress modest and have long hair. But there is much there that we don't feel comfortable with .
I am sorry that yor daughter has been teased by none less then the pastors son, It is no wonder that the church in is such a mess today. These type of young men I would not want marrying my daughters. I do want to encouage her to continue to stand up and do that which is good and right. I believe God will richly bless her for being faithful as a young lady.
I have found over the years that when people are doing what God would have them to do that the liberial church will attack them as being legallist. but in reallity we find great freedom in the why we live and dress.
Heather I trust you and your dh will seek the Lord in much prayer as what he would have you to do , which I am sure you are doing. Sometimes as hard as it is we need to comeout from among them.
May God bless you as you seek to live and sever Him.
In His hands.
Bro Randy
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Post by Brother Randy on Aug 22, 2005 23:15:07 GMT -5
Great peaching Sister Darlene!! ;D In the mist of all that we are going through right now I trust a little humor and teasing is not out of line. I do enjoy your posts Sister. And I do agree with what you have to say.
Bro Randy
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Post by Brother Ben on Aug 23, 2005 7:48:27 GMT -5
You know, this should be a non-topic among the biblical, historic, persecuted, time-tested people called...Baptist. I am constatnly amazed, no, I guess disheartened, by the NEW all time lows our Baptist brethren are achieving. I don't want to get off on another rant about the state of the church, but do you brothers and sisters see a pattern here? You all bring up topics in regards to dress, youth groups, the pastor and his family, etc., ad nausium, and the outcome is almost always the same; shock, dismay, and grief over the state of affairs in our midst. Sister Heather, the time has come for people to - Sit down
- Have some real serious discussions
- Pray
- Research
- And start moving together for the sake or our families.
I have two sons and six daughters, I have a hard time thinking about marrying off my precious children to the rascals I see in the churches (independent fundamental Baptist) these days. I know a few good families, and I have seen a few good boys and girls, but the testimony should not be "a few!" The Baptist people should have a testimony that is so vivid and shining, that people flock to be a part of this dynamo! That is why Darlene and I call our little house church, Pilgrim Baptist Church, we are pilgrims and we have had to leave the place we called home (ifb churches) and look toward a new (spiritual) country. Any pilgrims out there?Bro. Ben
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Post by benshelpmeet on Aug 23, 2005 14:15:52 GMT -5
Dear Brethren, I like what Bro. Randy said about..... quote:I have found over the years that when people are doing what God would have them to do that the liberal church will attack them as being legalist. but in reallity we find great freedom in the why we live and dress.[/ b]
It is great freedom this godly plain life-style. We believe in living a simple life, debt- free for the most part except our land payment.
We believe in presenting ourselves in a clean,kempt, pressed way. No adornments or extras like make up, hair do's, or jewelry,bright flashy clothing. What would be the need or purpose anyhow?
We do not try to be or look like something we're not.
We try to live a plain and simple life trying to be a vibrant, real christian that is open to the Lord and the change He wants to make in our life.
We are not burdened down with having to keep up with the Jones, or having to please man or fear the face of man or what they think of us and how we worship our God, The living God, The Creator God, The mighty God, The only true God.
We try to live for God and not self in sacrificing to raise a large family and training them to know and love and honor God with their whole heart (This is a full time job ).
We sacrifice our time and funds to minister to the needs of others and to comfort others ( both saved and unsaved )and to diciple others in the path of the Lord and last but not least lead lost souls to Christ ( our main purpose ).
We try to eat healthy and not damage our bodys with madicines and unhealthy foods. We try to have hens for freash eggs and other farm animals for use.
We do not have a TV set or other form of worldly intertainment.
We have a large family and our children are there best friends. They play well together and we encourage this. There is no need for friends in the neighborhood.
I'm sure there are many more fine points of this plain and simple life style but I'll just let someone else finish if they think of something to through in. I've got to prepare for Bro. Bens Party! Oh yes we make a big deal out of Birthdays! Family is very important to us. More people should draw close to their spouse and children its your best treasure beside the Lord and His precious word ( the KJV for the english speaking people )
This is a subject I deeply love, and oh yes brother there is much freedom in this precious simple expression of our walk and faith and much joy beyond what words can explain. Freedom sweet Freedom and Joy!
May the Lord bless your day! ~ sister Darlene ~
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Post by restored on Aug 24, 2005 19:42:56 GMT -5
Thank you all so much for your post. It has been encouraging and discouraging at the same time. It is wonderful to know that we have like minded brothers and sisters in Christ that we can take things to like this. I am however disheartened, since all this is just a BIG reminder that we are probably going to have to do something about our attendance at this church. We want to teach our children to respect the pastor as they should, but when we have to run interference every week over things that are said from the pulpit, this is hard. We do it as graciously and meekly as possible, but it still boils down to us saying what the pastor said is not what we believe and here from the Bible is where we think it was not right. It leaves us in a real tug of war. Thank you Bro. Randy for your words of encouragement to Brianna. I let her read them and she was happy that someone was encouraging her and supporting her beliefs.
The Lord is doing such a work in our lives. We have been very cautious about making changes too fast. First we want to make sure they are Scriptural and that we are not too hasty in our decisions. We are slowly weeding out items in our closets and other areas. We were still allowing our son, Nathaniel 7, to wear shorts as long as they came way past his knees. I asked him last night about giving them up, because it was wrong for him to show his legs just like it was for his sisters to. He said no problem and told his dad today that he wasn't wearing shorts anymore because God didn't want him too. I will also confess that we still have a TV in our home. We did have two and I gave one to the church, because they said they needed another one, ironic huh! Allen calls it the Babylon box. We are doing a TV fast next month as I have heard many stories of how familys got rid of their TVs after doing this. Be in prayer for us please. This was probably one of the reasons that our pastor spoke of the TV in his message, because I told his wife what Allen calls it and that he wants to get rid of it and they probably didn't realize that we had two when we gave them the one. Oh well! We have started keeping the two older children with us in the service and I am sure this stands out too. Liberty will be joining us her shortly, like I said we are making slow changes as to not culture shock the children. We are probably going to go talk to pastor as a result of all this. I'm hoping Allen can set it up for sometime next week.
Once again thanks for the post and if you all have more let me hear (read) it.
In His Service, Allen and Heather
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Post by theschwarz1 on Aug 25, 2005 7:33:39 GMT -5
Heather, What a testiomony your family has! Thank you for sharing, and please update when you can! Thank you so much! -Bro. Rob
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Post by restored on Aug 29, 2005 21:40:18 GMT -5
Well the update is not good. What I feared most has happened. Allen has been told that he can no longer sing in the choir or sing specials as long as he will not wear a tie. The two things that bug me most are first the pastor asked him to reconsider his stand on ties. Basically asking him to give up his conviction. WOW!!!! The other thing that bugs me is that the ladies in the choir wear skirts that don't even come to their knees and the ungodly dress goes on I am sure I do not need to go into detail. I told Allen that I will be stepping down from the choir also then. Our whole family sang Sunday. We sang Eph. 6:1-3 and Deut. 11:18-20, we got these off of the Godly Home series from Charity. We really enjoyed learning them and getting to show others a little of what God is doing in our lives. Even Liberty our youngest (4) learned them and sang out. We were all looking forward to doing this on a regular basis as a family.
Now another problem we are facing is that on Oct.2 our church is having Friends Day. This is a big deal, with food, games, fellowship, and special music. The problem is the special music. It is the same group we had last year and we were very displeased with them then. Even a year ago when we were little more than just your average worldly Christians we seen something we didn't like in them. Even if we could get past their music, we couldn't get past the fact that they seemed more like performers than servants of God. Their clothes were the latest style and they even talked about how they were, the woman was decked out make-up, hair, jewelry, and clothes. I figure if we seen something wrong with them a year ago I don't see how I can even sit and listen now let alone allow my children to do so. Allen has already said that we will be visiting another church on this day.
Allen said that he fears how close our pastor is building his fence to the edge of the cliff. Please pray for us. I am hearbroken over Allen not being able to sing. I also fear the message that this will send to our children. I feel persecuted by fellow believers. Pray for us to have wisdom as we go talk to our pastor and as we see where God leads us. By the way Sis. Darlene Brianna said then let's just move to Tennesse, when she found out her daddy couldn't sing in the choir anymore. ;D I told her that we are not opposed to the idea, but we had to wait upon God to move us if that is what He wants.
IN His Service, Heather (Allen too)
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Post by robinva on Aug 30, 2005 8:28:53 GMT -5
Heather,
I am so grieved by what is happening to your family. What a silly thing that your husband will not to be allowed to sing without wearing a tie! As long as a person is in good standing in a church and does not present him or her self in an immodest or unkempt way they should never be turned away from willing service.
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Post by robinva on Aug 30, 2005 11:47:44 GMT -5
After I had posted I was thinking again about this subject and felt I had to respond again in all fairness to the the other side of this issue. Keep in mind I DON'T agree but, it is the conviction of some that we are to look our very best when attending church services to show our honor and respect for our Lord. Just as this is a personal conviction, not able to be supported with scripture, it may be a good reminder to those of us who have personal convictions on the other side to always be humble when dealing with fellow believers.
Robin
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Post by Brother Ben on Aug 30, 2005 11:56:50 GMT -5
In the plain churches it is called a "standard." I do not have a problem with a standard for the sake of unity, but I guess what it boils down to is "which" standard do want to submit you and your family to.
Ben
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Post by restored on Aug 30, 2005 14:45:44 GMT -5
I just wanted to say that when Allen was approached by the pastor that Allen was very understanding. I was not as gracious, but I wasn't there and I am a woman and very emotional ;D. He told the pastor that he understood and would then not sing anymore. No arguement. As to the looking our best, I want all to understand that Allen wears a nice suit coat, dress pants, button up shirt, and dress shoes. He does look very nice, but we just felt that the tie was an added adornment like a necklace. And like I said the inconsistancy in standards is what bothers us. Gotta go, Heather
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