Greetings from a fellow-Pilgrim

[Deleted]

I have recently been accepted into membership on the website and am using this opportunity to introduce myself. I came across this website while studying the subject of modest dress with relation to a message I recently preached in our home congregation.

I am a minister/elder in a conservative Brethren congregation (Church of the Brethren) in Pennsylvania. After perusing the site I believe that we would have much in common in our beliefs. I am quite familiar with the Baptist history and have read a fair amount of their writings. I especially like the works of John T. Christian, John Gill, and Charles Spurgeon.

Many congregations in our denomination have gone liberal both in doctrine and in practice and it has become necessary to teach and defend the doctrine of nonconformity/modesty against the many objections to it while at the same seeking to avoid "teaching for doctrine the commandments of men." I chose the handle "apologist" because it comes from a Greek word which means to "give an answer back" (not because I am seeking debate). Those who take a stand for truth will find that they, like Christ, will at times be interrogated by those who will seek to discredit that stand and will be asked honest questions by those who are seekers of truth. As a minister, I have a responsibility before God to be ready to give an answer.

I am encouraged by those here who are taking stands for truth even when it is not popular in the church which you attend. May God bless each one of you. I don't know how often I may be able to check in or participate, but I do want to encourage you all to be faithful.

[Brother Ben]

Greetings, brother, it is nice to have you here with us. I subscribed a year or so ago to a newsletter from the Brethren Revival Fellowship, are you familiar with them. I was curious what the Lord was doing with this group. It will be nice to hear you share with us what God is doing at your local congregation and among your group.

Bro. Ben

[Deleted]

Our particular congregation has devoted personnel and resources to Brethren Revival Fellowship and Bible Helps. Bible Helps sends out monthly articles which go world-wide. I have more personal involvement, at this point in time, with Bible Helps (as a writer) than Brethren Revival Fellowship.

BRF has been the platform through which we reach other congregations with the historical/conservative Brethren understanding of scripture. The mission of BRF is to remain primarily loyal to the truth and secondarily to work within the denomination to call the Brethren back to practicing the discarded teachings of the NT.

Our congregation is currently conservative, though it is facing the challenges of passing the truth on to faithful men who will be able to teach the next generation

p.s. Did you receive the private email I sent to the address you listed in your profile?

[allglorytogod]

The mission of BRF is to remain primarily loyal to the truth and secondarily to work within the denomination to call the Brethren back to practicing the discarded teachings of the NT.

Welcome Brother ... Nice to meet you ... I am very interested in knowing more about these "discarded teachings of the NT". Could you supply a complete list of these discarded teachings ? I ask for learning purposes ... I have been reading/studying daily God's Holy Word for a mere ten years. I am a very serious and conservative Christian who is literally surrounded by liberals ... I seek only truth and I am not getting it in any of the churches in my area ... You sound non-liberal and that is why I ask you for this list of discarded teachings ... I would like to compare my list of discarded teachings with your list and see if you mention some things I wasn't aware of ... I apologize for my forwardness ... I hate to say " Hello, nice to meet you and could you do me a favor ? "... If you do not wish to post an answer that is fine and I will be understanding ...

[SisterNancy]

Hello Brother,

welcome to the boards.

I was wondering if you wouldn't mind telling me where your church is? We live in PA too. however, we had been attending a Brethern in Christ church but the pastor's family and ours were the only ones covering. The pastor has left and the new pastor does not see the need for it. We are in the north central part of the state.

God's blessing on you and your church! Stay steadfast in your teaching Brother.

[Deleted]

With regard to the request for a "complete" list of discarded teachings, we would be very cautious of considering any list complete. The Brethren have tried to avoid categorizing definitive lists as they can bind men to an incomplete or deficient understanding of scripture by those who generate the list. On the other hand we recognize the necessity of setting some doctrinal boundaries to separate truth from error and establishing practices which unify a fellowship of churches. We use the Brethren Card to identify some of our understandings of scripture. It identifies a number of items which have been discarded by contemporary churches, but which were practiced by the apostolic and ante-nicene churches. Within the Brethren Card framework each congregation has a large degree of independence. In this way we seek to avoid a hierarchy of authority while maintaining an association of unity and cooperation.

Here is the Brethren Card:

1. This body of Christians originated early in the eighteenth century the church being a natural outgrowth of the Pietistic movement following the Reformation.


2. Firmly accepts and teaches the fundamental evangelical doctrines of;

the inspiration of the Bible,
the personality of the Holy Spirit,
the virgin birth,
the deity of Christ,
the sin-pardoning value of his atonement,
his resurrection from the tomb, ascension and personal and visible return and the resurrection, both of the just and unjust (John 5:28, 29; 1 Thess. 4:13-18).

3. Observes the following New Testament rites:

Baptism of penitent believers by trine immersion for the remission of sins (Matt. 28: 19; Acts 2:38);
feet-washing (John 13:1-20; 1 Tim. 5:10);
love feast (Luke 22:20; John 13: 4; 1 Cor. 11:17-34; Jude 12);
communion (Matt. 26:26-30);
the Christian salutation (Rom. 16:16; Acts 20:37);
proper appearance in worship (1 Cor. 11:2-16);
the anointing for healing in the name of the Lord (James 5:13-18; Mark 6:13);
laying on of hands (Acts 8:17; 19:6; 1 Tim. 4:14).
These rites are representative of spiritual facts which obtain in the lives of true believers, and as such are essential factors in the development of the Christian life.

4. Emphasizes:

daily devotion for the individual, and family worship for the home (Eph. 6: 18-20; Philpp. 4:8, 9);
stewardship of time, talents and money (Matt. 25:14-30);
taking care of the fatherless, widows, poor, sick and aged (Acts 6:1-7).

5. Opposes on Scriptural grounds:

War and the taking of human life (Matt. 5:21-26, 43, 44; Rom. 12:19-21; Isa. 53:7-12);
violence in personal and industrial controversy (Matt 7: 12; Rom. 13: 8-10);
intemperance in all things (Titus 2: 2; Gal, 5: 19-26; Eph. 5: .18);
going to law, especially against our Christian brethren (1 Cor. 6:1-9);
divorce and remarriage, except for the one Scriptural reason (Matt 19:9);
every form of oath (Matt. 5: 33-37; James 5:12);
membership in secret oath-bound societies (2 Cor. 6:14-18);
games of chance and sinful amusements (1 Thess. 5:22; 1 Peter 2:11; Rom. 12:17);
extravagant and immodest dress (1 Tim. 2:8-10; 1 Peter 3:1-6).

6. Labors earnestly, in harmony with the Great Commission,
for the evangelization of the world;
for the conversion of men to Jesus Christ; and;
for the realization of the life of Jesus Christ in every believer (Matt. 28:18-20; Mark 16:15, 16; 2 Cor. 3:18).

7. Maintains the New Testament as its only creed, in harmony with which the above brief doctrinal statement is made.

*We are Premillenial in our eschatology. While many are Pre-trib, there is a growing number of us who would see the return of Christ happening after the tribulation of the Anti-christ, but before the wrath of God is poured out upon the sin of this world.

*We believe that there are two primary ruling offices in the Church--those of deacon and minister/pastor/elder/bishop. We use a plural ministry in each congregation and from the body of those elders select one to serve as the presiding elder such as James was at Jerusalem (note Acts 15:13,19; 21:18).

* Our congregation is located just west of York, PA (south central).

[allglorytogod]

Dear Brother ... Many thanks for your quick reply and for supplying all this terrific information . ... May God Bless You ... sister

P.S. Any thoughts on speaking in tongues today ?

[Deleted]

Concerning speaking in tongues let me answer in brief.

Acts 2 is clear that speaking in tongues under the power of the Holy Spirit involves speaking in other unknown i.e. unlearned (to the speaker) "languages," not babble like the heathen priests spoke when they were taken over by spells, trances, and incantations.

1 Corinthians 14 restricts the public usage of tongues in the church to interpretation. Interpretation shows the relationship of the unknown i.e. unlearned (to the speaker) language with a known language or speech from another part of the world which can be translated. There is no point speaking in another language unless there is someone to be reached in that language, otherwise the church receives no benefit. If there is another present who speaks a foreign language and they hear their language spoken and then interpreted miraculously, all are edified, and all are convinced of the supernatural power of God and his validation of the Gospel message. The person who truly speaks in tongues without interpretation is only edifying themselves because in their known language of their thoughts they are praising God and experiencing His miraculous power working through them to speak their known/understood thoughts into an unknown tongue.

Tongues were primarily given as a sign gift to validate the ministry of the apostles, visibly show the coming of the Spirit, confirm the apostolic teaching as holy Scripture, convince unbelievers of truth, and fulfill the prophecy of the testimony of the New Covenant to Israel. All these purposes were fulfilled in the apostolic age and confirmed and set apart the apostolic message from all other teachings (Mark 16:20; Heb. 2:1-4).

The general cessation of the gift marked the close of the apostolic age so that no others could claim apostolic authority to write holy Scripture or infer that God was still divinely inspiring other men's teaching . The Word was confirmed and the canon was closed! Those who extend the general practice of the sign gifts to the current age reinterpret the apostolic definition of tongues as spoken at Pentecost, mimic the gift through babble, and often assume their own inspirational authority as equal to scripture, and seek to extend the apostolic office to the present age.

I would never take the position that God does not still occasionally extend the true gift in the present age, but would hold that it is not the norm as in the apostolic age when God was confirming apostolic teaching as divinely inspired and testifying to Israel of the truth of the New Covenant in fullfillment of prophecy (1Cor. 14:21; Joel 2). God has chosen to maintain that distinction between the present age and the apostolic age through the cessation of the "regular usage" of the sign gifts in order to direct our attention to His Holy Book (from the apostolic age) rather than the present inspirational claims of other men.

Finally I would note that every true believer has the baptism of the Holy Spirit, as there is no other way to enter the body of Christ and no other way to live an obedient Christian life (Acts 2:38; 5:32; 1Cor.12:13; Rom. 8:9).

[coveredinharmony]

Brother, thank you so much for that last post! You have brilliantly worded a concept I've had a lot of trouble explaining.

Love in Christ,

Little sister Sarah

[allglorytogod]

Dear Brother ... Once again many thanks for your very informative reply . .. I am tempted to show this information to a person I know ... She is a born again believer ... She says she prays in tongues and reads scripture in tongues ... All I could think to say to her was, "When you speak in tongues there must be an interpreter." Then I asked her what she was feeling when she spoke in tongues ... she said there was a feeling of 'peace'.

She told me how she started speaking in tongues ... she was, I believe, just visiting a Pentecostal church and showed an interest in learning how to speak in tongues ... someone laid hands on her and since then she says she speaks in tongues and likes it

[Deleted]

I might further clarify this verse:
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Praying in the spirit in an unknown tongue involves expressing our thoughts, emotions, and desires to God, but we still do not know exactly how that is being verbally expressed in the unknown tongue unless it is given a word for word interpretation (the understanding of the tongue is unfruitful).

Again I would note that at Pentecost the tongues being used involved speaking in another language which could be given a word for word translation. When the Gentiles in Cornelius' house spoke in tongues Peter indicated that they could be baptized since they received the Holy Spirit in the same manner as those at Pentecost. This illustrates that the apostolic gift of tongues involved the ability to speak in unlearned languages--for the Gentiles exhibited the gift the same as was manifested at Pentecost. We do not have any indication in Scripture that they were two types of the gift of tongues or it would be called the "gifts" of tongues. Those who make tongues out to be something other than unlearned languages are not speaking about the same gift of the Holy Ghost spoken of at Pentecost (and there is only one "gift" of tongues). The tongues of languages was evident proof that God was pouring out His Spirit on all flesh, not merely special individuals such as the prophets in the Old Testament times.

Our family lived for a time in Ukraine as missionaries and church planters. We had a Pentecostal lady for a Russian language teacher. She was amazed when I said I believed in speaking in tongues and that our church did as well. She was then puzzled when I said though we all believed in tongues that none to my knowledge spoke in tongues. She wondered why no one would speak in tongues if we all believed in the gift. I asked her if she believed in the gift. She said yes. I asked her if she spoke in tongues, and she said, "Yes." I asked her why she had to "learn" English in order to speak the language, for when the apostolic church spoke in tongues they could speak other languages without learning them. This started many discussions which led her to begin to reevaluate and change some of her Pentecostal understandings. She began to see how the Pentecostal approach caused her to seek "experiences" (and the resulting emotional highs and lows) to validate truth rather than relying on the "sure Word of prophecy."