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Post by nivek on Nov 12, 2006 20:01:32 GMT -5
We are looking at a "family integrated" church near us ( gracecommunityinfo.org) and they are Southern Baptist. I have seen some commentary on SBC in various places on the board, but as I searched today I couldn't really find a straight-forward answer to what I was asking myself. We actually arrived at this church website from Vision Forums as we were reading and comparing Charity and Vision from another board thread. The Vision website says this church is "Reformed Credobaptist" and the confessional stance is "The Philadelphia Confession (1742)" which came mostly from the 1689 Confession. So, on the surface to me it seems they are Southern Baptist but adhere to some earlier Baptist beliefs. Can someone help me understand where this Confession fits into the Baptists, or maybe what the primary theological/doctrinal differences are between what many on this board believe (so, maybe Anabaptist or Plain Baptist?) and what the Southern Baptist Church generally believes? I don't expect to find head covering or modesty at this church necessarily, but on our first pass it seemed like it might be worth trying. Thanks! Bro. Kevin |
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Post by jeff on Nov 12, 2006 23:08:56 GMT -5
I don't know if I can answer all of your question, but we do attend a Southern Baptist Church. I think I should identify one important word in your question. You said what Southern Baptists "generally" believe.
We should probably separate what the churches believe and what churches practice. Southern Baptist churches (at least in my little corner of the world) generally believe along some good theological/doctrinal lines. What some Southern Baptist churches generally practice however, is something different entirely. It saddens me to say that a wave of modernism and error is sweeping through the SBC. In many, not necessarily most, but many churches, the gospel is all but lost in the massive stage production on Sunday. It's reduced to a dog and pony show, with a 15 minute feel good message and a lot of rock music.
SBC churches run the gamut from very liberal to very conservative. Our particular church is on the very conservative end of the spectrum. I should add that I come from an independent Baptist background, and I consider our Southern Baptist church to be as conservative in most areas as what I had previously experienced elsewhere. Truthfully, I can see the Lord working in our present church more than I have ever seen anywhere.
I really do have some issues with the financial end of things with the SBC, and many times I feel like a lot of God's money goes to support a huge bureaucracy instead of getting where it's needed.
All that being said, I wouldn't automatically rule out a church because they are SBC (I'm glad we didn't), but I also wouldn't automatically say that they were OK for it either.
I looked at the website you linked for the church. I'm no theologian, and I don't know your particular inclinations, but they appear to be Calvinistic.
That's a long response, and I probably didn't answer what you were looking for.....
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Post by George on Nov 13, 2006 10:03:47 GMT -5
Brother Jeff, the primary difficulty I have with the SBC churches is that they are not set up according to the doctrines of the Bible. Each Church is to be an independent, local Church. In the Bible there was no higher body such as the Southern Baptist Convention to oversee the doings of the Church. Christ was appointed to be the head over all things to the Church, not some appointed or elected board of men. For that very reason I personally would stay completely away from any SBC Church. If the Church itself is not set up according to the Bible I do not believe I can have faith and trust in the other things they do.
In Christ,
George
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Post by George on Nov 13, 2006 10:08:42 GMT -5
Brother Kevin, I do not believe this "confession" fits into the Baptists in any way, shape or form. These "confessions" are the words of men. We have the Bible. Any attempt to create these confessions is to me adding to the Bible. That is prohibited by the Bible itself. In independent, fundamental, New Testament Baptist Churches it is said that we are Bible-believing and Bible-teaching. That is all that is necessary. We must take the stance that we believe every word of the Bible and then any kind of "confession" is not necessary. We have confessed our belief in Christ and the Bible through it.
In Christ,
George
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Post by Brother Ben on Nov 13, 2006 13:14:16 GMT -5
Kevin, All churches have a "creed" whether they state it or not. Southern Baptists, doctrinally, like Jeff said, run the gamut (sp?) This one you found, and especially since they are recommended by Vision Forum are going to be Calvinists. I don't know where you stand on that, but you will have to see if you can tolerate/accept/stomach that doctrine. Indeed we vary here on theological explanation, i.e., Arminian, Calvinist, Calvaminians  , etc. However I believe Jeff said it well. Like any church, you are going to have to see where they stand on the Bible, the preeminece of Christ, and where they are going with their youth (this speaks volumes.) Hopefully Bro. Bob will jump in being a SBC pastor. Where are you Bob! Some have expressed concern with the finances and the heirarchy of the denomination. I believe the independent pattern as I see it as more scriptural. Having said that, I see indepndents really messing things up in some areas too. So who's error is greater? Check out the individual church. Ben |
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Post by brobob on Nov 14, 2006 1:12:34 GMT -5
To quote that great philosopher from the early 20th Century, Buckwheat, "Here i is!", lol! I miss those little shows! And i'm way off topic.
Anyway, there is no denominational "heirarchy" in the SBC as you would find in other denominational groups. In fact, the set up of the SBC is more along the lines of a parachurch group than a denomination.
The leadership is nominated and voted on by the members of the local church serving as delegates at the annual meetings. In terms of board leadership, like International or North American Mission Boards, they serve under a board of trustees who are also elected by the said delegats.
The SBC also has a "Cooperative Program" which each church donates as much as they would like to. It goes from the local church to the state conventions who then divide that money up among ministries on the state and local level and then send a specific amount to the SBC; the larger percentage is left in the state/local ministries.
Because SBC churches are autonomous, you will find them going across the spectrum in terms of what they believe. Some will be further left than Castro while some will make even Jack Hyles look a bit moderate. For that reason, you pretty much have to visit, ask questions, and study each church you might visit in the SBC.
For example, when i was in seminary in Louisville we had a hard time finding a church because so many were pastored by pastors coming out of the school i attended during it's 50 year captivity under the extreme liberal wing of the SBC. For that reason, we could go to 3 different churches and find 3 different stances on most issues.
If you find a good conservative church that is SBC, chances are it won't be a covering church, but would probably be very sympathetic and understanding of your stance...and probably even supportive.
Just my 2 cents for what it is worth, which isn't really much. I have my issues with the SBC, but i have yet to feel God releasing me from serving in this little corner of our baptist world. I've asked, but i'm still in a "holding pattern" waiting for the "yes".
God bless in your search for a church home to serve the Savior and be part of building His Kingdom.
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Post by jeff on Nov 14, 2006 9:46:40 GMT -5
If you find a good conservative church that is SBC, chances are it won't be a covering church, but would probably be very sympathetic and understanding of your stance...and probably even supportive. Just my 2 cents for what it is worth, which isn't really much. I have my issues with the SBC, but i have yet to feel God releasing me from serving in this little corner of our baptist world. I've asked, but i'm still in a "holding pattern" waiting for the "yes". I agree wholeheartedly. Our church, while we don't practice covering, would be supportive of anyone who did. I can say that with confidence. I know the people and I really believe that. Honestly, I've prayed about it too (where He would have us). God put me and my family exactly where we are. I know that beyond a shadow of a doubt, and He hasn't told us to leave. Being where He wants you to be is truthfully a good feeling. |
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Post by Brother Ben on Nov 16, 2006 8:28:06 GMT -5
Amen! to that. The Lord very clearly recently showed us His will regarding a church home. My friend pastors a little Baptist church about 20 minutes from our home. We began attending and this past Sunday the Lord lead us to place our membership there. We have been blessed by the people and messages. We are the only family with wife and girls that cover, but they don't even flinch. It is a blessing.
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Post by jeff on Nov 16, 2006 13:02:49 GMT -5
Praise God! I haven't been a board member for long, but I've read about y'all's ups and downs with being able to find a church home.
And only 20 minutes away!
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Post by brobob on Nov 27, 2006 17:55:25 GMT -5
Great news Bro. Ben! I know you guys have been searching for a place to worship for some time now, so let's praise the Lord for that!
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Post by Brother Ben on Nov 28, 2006 9:02:12 GMT -5
Amen, it is a blessing. I taught Sunday School the last two weeks and have been asked to teach it again this coming Sunday. I may be teaching the auditorium class for now on. Neat!
Also, we have a pretty good sound system that currently isn't being used except for the p.a. Pastor told me we have the capability to record on tapes and cd's. He asked me to get that going and also to take over the church web page. It is such a blessing to be plugged in and serving! ;D
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Post by George on Nov 28, 2006 10:28:57 GMT -5
Amen Brother Ben! It sounds as if you have found a home where you can be of a great deal of service to The Lord. I am very pleased for you and your family. I continue to pray for you each day.
In Christ,
George
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Post by brobob on Nov 28, 2006 15:15:39 GMT -5
BTW...i just looked at Grace Community Church's website and their doctrinal statement, and i agree with Bro Ben in terms of thier stance on Calvinism/Reformed Theology/Doctrines of Grace or whatever it is they call it these days. As for the Baptist Confessions mentioned there, they are just organizing statements of faith that like minded churches have accepted in organizing together to do ministry. If you want to read the current Baptist Faith and Message for the SBC you can go here: www.sbc.net/bfm The statements of faith mentioned on GCC's website were written at at time when Calvinism was a predominent teaching in baptist churches in the US. |
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, etc. However I believe Jeff said it well. Like any church, you are going to have to see where they stand on the Bible, the preeminece of Christ, and where they are going with their youth (this speaks volumes.)