Hebrews 6...

[MrsDeweySmith]

It's pretty obvious I have limited understanding of what many would consider basic issues...but I have a willing-to-learn heart and spirit, so I ask questions...

At our midweek service last night, points of the church's statement were discussed. One point that came up was concerning Hebrews 6 and 'lost' saved souls, sinning the sin unto death, etc? I'm lost in understanding what was discussed, here are the verses noted Heb 6:1-12

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briars is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
Heb 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labor of love, which ye have showed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

I have heard the talk of 'sinning the sin unto death' but have never really had it explained to me, let alone backed up with Scripture. What I've been told is that the sin unto death would be along the lines of one who turns from God, repeatedly non-repentant, blaspheming the Lord at every turn, etc. Total denial and arrogance of God's existence. One who has heard and has learned, but refuses to acknowledge Him.
Is that right? Is there a clear cut sin unto death in Scripture?
Part of previous midweek talks have been concerning those who "walk the walk and talk the talk" but are not truly saved; how the church today leads so many into false salvation, etc. I am guessing they are using the section of Heb 6 to somehow back that up. Bro Johnny made a special point of the wording of v6, which I guess I don't understand at all.

Am I uncomfortable simple because I don't have a clear understanding of this particular area, or am I rightfully uncomfortable due to things not being altogether 'correct' here somehow?

Sister Deanna

[George]

I have heard the talk of 'sinning the sin unto death' but have never really had it explained to me, let alone backed up with Scripture.

This is a very interesting doctrinal question. It is mentioned in at least two other places in the New Testament. Once by the apostle Paul in Romans and once by John in 1 John. Let me see if I can shed a little light on it for you both from a scriptural and practical standpoint. Hopefully I won't muddy the waters even more so.

(Romans 6:16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

(1 John 5:16) If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. (1 John 5:17) All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. (1 John 5:18) We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

I believe that in both instances as well as the one mentioned in Hebrews the Bible is speaking of those who are unsaved. That fact can be borne out by the context of scripture. The Bible tells us there is one unpardonable sin. That is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit of God.

(Matthew 12:31) Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.


At the time of our accepting the all-important gift of Salvation and eternal life we are also provided the incredible gift of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. According to the Bible, from that point on our soul has been renewed and that soul is incapable of sin. Please notice I said the SOUL is incapable of sin. That is accepted doctrine and is widely backed-up by the Bible. For the sake of space I will not quote you the verses which support this important fact. They are there and I will pull them up and post them if anyone wants to have this fact verified.

A person who is truly saved; is truly a Christian not just in words of mouth but in conductance of life is not capable of sin against the Holy Spirit of God. It is that same Holy Spirit which provides us with the guidance necessary in our lives. One of the surest ways of being absolutely certain of our Salvation is the inner working of the Holy Spirit in our lives. If you have ever, at any time, experienced the inner turmoil, the uneasy feeling or the abject sorrow of committing sin knowingly that is evidence of the Holy Spirit living in you. The evidence of that Holy Spirit of God living in you, since the indwelling occurs at the time of Salvation, is proof positive of Salvation. For all of this I believe we can see that the truly saved and born-again Christian is not capable of sin against that same Holy Spirit.

This unforgivable sin is only capable of being committed by those who have not accepted the Gospel of Christ, both those who have not heard it and those who have heard it and rejected it. I say those who have not heard it because the Bible says those who do not have God's law are a law unto themselves. (Rom 2:14) The evidence of God is all around us and is easily seen by even those who are not saved. By the mere existence of this evidence, those who are aware of the existence of God, and the Bible says it is readily evidenced to all, and reject it fall into the category of those who have heard the Gospel and reject it.

Notice that in 1 John 5:18 we see the Biblical proof of that which I have said concerning the fact the soul of the saved cannot sin. "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not;" Let us look a little more in depth at the question of the sin unto death.

There is a sin unto death; which is not only deserving of death, as every other sin is, but which certainly and inevitably issues in death in all that commit it, without exception; and that is the sin against the Holy Ghost, which is neither forgiven in this world nor in that to come, and therefore must be unto death; it is a sinning willfully, not in a practical, but doctrinal way, after a man has received the knowledge of the truth; it is a willful denial of the truth of the Gospel, particularly that peace, pardon, righteousness, eternal life, and salvation, are by Jesus Christ, contrary to the light of his mind, and this joined with malice and obstinacy; so that there is no more or other sacrifice for such a sin; there is nothing but a fearful looking for of wrath and fury to fall on such opposers of the way of life; and as the presumptuous sinners under Moses's law died without mercy, so must these despiteful ones under the Gospel.

The Bible says there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. But it goes on farther to say that those who are not, those who do not believe, are condemned already. Because there is no condemnation of the saved and born-again we cannot commit the sin unto the death of the second type. That is the sin of death and being cut off from God for all eternity cast into the lake of fire. The simple fact is that a saved Christian will take their sin to The Lord in prayer and the Bible says He will cleanse us of all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)

So we can see that this sin unto death in this sense concerns the actions of an unsaved person who blasphemes the Holy Spirit of God. The rejection of the existence of God and His free offer of Salvation through our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ is this sin. However, the Bible also says that we do have the availability of a remedy for this immense problem. It is to repent, meaning have a change of heart and mind, and accept Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Saviour.

Now to the saved and born again Christian there is still sin unto death and there is also sin unto death which is not sin unto death. Did that confuse anyone besides me? Let me try to explain it to you. As we can see above this particular type of sin unto death is speaking of the second death. There is also death of the first order. The death of the physical body.

Speaking of this from the aspect of the ministry I head in our Church, the sin that can be committed that brings death of the first kind concerns the indulgence in addictive behaviour. We must all realize that the Bible says we are all addicted to sin. That is a very basic and given fact. This is known doctrinally as the sin nature of man.

In the case of an addict, each and every time that person makes the determination to get behind the wheel of a vehicle, start the engine and drive while under the influence they are taking the very real risk of death. Not a very pretty death either. The risk comes in getting wrapped around a tree, a light pole, a bridge abutment or something similar. And God willing when that happens the driver will not take someone else with them. The Bible says that such action is sin. The Bible says consumption of alcohol is a sin. I can prove that from the Bible. If anyone believes our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ served alcoholic wine at the Last Supper or likewise believes He turned water into alcoholic wine at the marriage in Cana, then He was guilty of sin and we might as well throw our Bibles in the trash can. Again, if anyone cares for expansion of that fact I will gladly furnish them Biblical proof of the fact that consumption of alcohol is a sin. By extension use of drugs is also sin.

That is a sin unto death of the first order, which if committed by a saved and born-again Christian is not a sin unto death of the second order. Let me give you another example of this. Look at the case of a person who commits murder. In most states of this country if you commit first degree murder you will most likely be sentenced to death. If the court says you are to die, you will die. You may not survive long enough to actually face the gas chamber or the electric chair, but even at that you will die in prison whether it be of natural causes or at the hands of another inmate.

However, the Bible says that if we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin, and to cleanse us of ALL unrighteousness. The Bible says ALL unrighteousness which covers murder also. It does not say most unrighteousness or some unrighteousness or a little unrighteousness. It says all and in this case all means all. So a person can commit the sin unto death of the first type but if they accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior and confess their sin to God they will not face the death of the second type.

Let me give you one last example of the sin unto death that is not sin unto death, again from he apostle Paul. We can find it in 1 Corinthians.

(1 Corinthians 5:1) It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. (1 Corinthians 5:2) And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. (1 Corinthians 5:3) For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed. (1 Corinthians 5:4) In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, (1 Corinthians 5:5) To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

We do not know the exact nature of the sin committed here but we can see it was a rather heinous sin of a sexual nature. Paul is speaking to the Church at Corinth about how to handle this situation. This is the best example of Church discipline found in the Bible. Pay particular attention to what is said in verse 5: "to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh," Brothers and Sisters, that is death! That is death of the first type. It is a sin unto death of the first order. Yet if you look at the conclusion of the verse you can plainly see it is not the death of the second type. Paul finishes that verse by saying, "that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.' The person who committed this sin is to be literally cut off from the fellowship of the Church to the extent they may die physically but Paul says the soul will be saved. In this case when he speaks of the day of the Lord Jesus it is either the day of the rapture or the day we die the physical death. This passage of scripture is dealing with a saved and born-again Christian. It can be seen no other way since the epistle was written to the Church at Corinth and Paul says it is widely reported there is fornication AMONG YOU which means by a Church member.

I apologize for the length of this exposition. It really can't be any other way and actually could have been quite a bit longer. I pray it is of some benefit and has helped with understanding of the question presented. I also pray as I said at the beginning that it has not served to further muddy the waters. I am certain brother Ben will have something to say along these lines and can undoubtedly do a better job than I.

Yours in Christ,
George Groce

[George]

Oh and sister Deanna, your willing-to-learn heart and spirit has been noted and is commendable. I am certain The Lord will richly reward you as you continue to seek the Truth of His Holy Word.

Yours in Christ,
George Groce

[MrsDeweySmith]

Meat, meat and more meat Thank you Bro George for the answers to my questions. Much to look to and study on. I greatly appreciate your time in helping me sort this all out. My husband will appreciate it as well, as we were both a bit stumped by how the service went and where it was all to be leading.

Sister Deanna

[Brother Ben]

It is my understanding that the Epistle to the Hebrews is a mixed epistle. It does have references to Christians, but there is a "strong" appeal to, as it is called, the Hebrews. Note:

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;" Heb. 1:1,2

"How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];" Heb 2:3

"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;" Heb 3:1

[The Gospel was to the "Jew" first, then to the Gentiles]

"But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in [their] heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
:" Heb. 3:6-11

It is obvious by these verses that Paul is addressing the "Hebrews" and reminding them of the error of their forefathers. As you go through the Epistle to the Hebrews their is a constant reference to a better way, a better priest, a better covenant, etc.

Paul, at least I thing Hebrews was written by Paul, is telling the Hebrews that there is no better way, and there is no other way. Nationally, for the Jews/Hebrews, this is the end of the road.

"But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law," Gal 4:4

The fulness of God's prophectic plan for salvation had come. There was no other way to be saved.

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," Heb. 10:6

All the way to the end of chapter ten you have a constant appeal and warning to the Hebrews that this is your Messiah, this is the promised one.

As you go into chapter six, Paul, speaking to mixed Hebrew Christians and yet unsaved Hebrews, wants to go on to the deeper things of God, but makes one more appeal. As you carefully read Heb. 6:4-9, try to picture Paul speaking to the Hebrews "nationally."

Remember when Stephan, the faithful martyr, was addressing the Jews? He said, "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye." Acts 7:51 The Holy Ghost was at work in the hearts of these "stiffnecked" people. God loves the Jews, they are a chosen people.

I will insert some comments in bold.

6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
6:5
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, This is an address to the Hebrews as a nation. Those reading this were both saved and unsaved, but they had their nationality in common. Because the Holy Ghost was giving as it were the last "national" call for the Hebrews to repent, they were receiving enlightenment, and were tasting (not eating,) and some were becoming "partakers."
6:6
If they shall fall away, [reinsert here the earlier phrase, "For it is impossible..." to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

For the "physical" Israel, this was it, the last call. If you look at world history, it wasn't much later that the Romans swept down, wiped out Jerusalem, killing was so rampant, the blood ran down the gutters on the sides of the street. The Jews were scattered to the four winds and they had no home till they came back in 1948, 1878 years later. They had persecution under almost every nation. Hitler, Stalin, and others would take their place as "divine" agents of discipline to this "stiffnecked" people.

Actually, as you read this passage, you should weep for the elect of God, Israel. They are the unfaithful bride now divorced from He whose love for them is only known in the oceans of holy tears that have fallen from His face as he waits for a tribulation to come that will turn their hearts back to their beloved.

"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn." Zech 12:10

I have read commentary after commentary on this passage. Most, with crow bar in hand, force this passage to apply to Christians. I imagine if you really spiritualize it you can extract some application, however this is an Epistle to the Hebrews and should be interpreted as such.

There is, though, a hermanutical change that occurs as you begin in chapter eleven. What is that change? It is the change that happens to any redeemd person, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Heb 11:1 Faith. In chapter 11 Paul draws from the lessons of the O.T. heros and shows the Hebrews that it was "faith" that made the difference. Judaism wasn't a religion, it was a relationship, that is all God ever wanted. David had it, you can see it in his sweet Psalms. Others had it too. Paul, in chapter 11, lets them know, "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. "(Heb. 11:6) From chapter 11, on, you have Paul writing to those Hebrews, in particular, who were the "partakers."





[I'll write more later, see ya! ]

[benshelpmeet]

Can you explain this verse.Maybe this is for another thread. Often Armenians will use this to say you loose your salvation.

I know you've explained this to me before, but I forget how it goes. I like to know so I can explain to others.

Thank you Bro. Ben

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," Heb. 10:6

[Brother Ben]

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," Heb. 10:26

Based on my earlier post it must be understood that Paul was telling these dear Hebrews, that there is no more, or no other sacrifice. You can't go to the Temple, it is invalidated by the Cross, and it is going to be leveled by the Romans in a couple of years. God no longer will delight in the blood of bulls and sheep, it is Christ or nothing. If you reject this...

"Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

[It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Heb. 10:29-31

Remember, this is a letter written in love and discipline. Paul said earlier,

"For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:" Rom. 9:3

"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." Rom. 10:1

Paul was willing to pay the ultimate price for his people, Israel. But....he knew, there time was coming, and this was the last call.

[benshelpmeet]