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Post by Brother Ben on Nov 14, 2007 8:58:16 GMT -5
kscarle said: First of all, Mennonites must be understood to be a diverse as Baptists. Everything from very fundamental and conservative to very liberal and compromising. This is why you will see some Mennonite sites that promote the NIV and other new versions. In regards to security, their way of description is different. They would not believe some of the stuff I have heard like, "If Hitler was saved, he went to Heaven." This is nonsense, his fruit proved that he did not. Jesus said, " My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" (Jhn 10:27) They believe conditional security. Calvinists say that one who fell away never was saved, they say he departed from the faith. Either way you have one who "professed to be a believer that returned to their vomit and never came back in repentance. It is not easy to understand at first when you come from a IFB only perspective, but there have been many men, greatly used of God, throughout church history who believed in conditional security. As far as right to bear arms, that is American, not Bible. Read the post on nonresistance and military service. coveredbaptists.proboards31.com/index.cgi?board=fundamental&action=display&thread=1121569691coveredbaptists.proboards31.com/index.cgi?board=fundamental&action=display&thread=1167417661I recommend you read some of those discussions. I used to be a real Patriot, it is American, but not particularly Bible. Bro. Ben
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kscarle
Member
Philippians 4:4, Romans 12:1, John 14:15
Posts: 97
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Post by kscarle on Nov 14, 2007 10:35:10 GMT -5
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Post by anabean on Nov 14, 2007 10:49:54 GMT -5
As Mennonites, we would readily admit that we do not have strong scriptural basis for having someone wait that long. But to a point, all churches do some things without scriptural basis.
Brother George said: Okay, then I must ask my brethren to show me the Scriptural basis for this waiting period. In the Bible people were made members of Churches immediately. But, right before that in an earlier post George said: Here we have a class for newcomers
George, you questioned our unscriptural practice of wanting people to check to make sure they really want to commit to a discipling lifestyle....yet....you noted you have classes. There are no classes in the Bible for new converts. Niether were they told to put graven images in their churches neither. Do you have a cross hanging on the wall at church? This is something we as a church will not do, as we are commanded to not have these things in church. We are to teach new converts, but we are never commanded to have a several week organized school-class.
You also said: During that time period if folks are not convinced they want to be a member of the Church there is really not any hope they will accept the fundamentalist (Bible) doctrines and they leave.
Where in the Bible is found the group of "fundamentalist" doctrines? What scripture teaches us that new converts must learn the "fundamentals"? The Bible itself is the fundamental doctrine. What they should be taught is the whole Bible.
I have stuck my neck out....let's see if any else will. Do you baptize immediately that day when people profess Christ, or do you wait unscripturally? Yes John said bring forth fruits of repentance, but the baptisms after that were not waited for and people were baptized immediately. Ones that were baptized by John who believed in Christ later in Acts were also baptized immediately. This, the apostles did. However, we do not lift the apostles above their place...they are men as we were...and were prone to error as we are....as the scriptures prove. But if you wait one day for baptism; arent you not also adding to the scriptures? Do you have altar calls? If so, you have added a human institution to salvation which is not in the scriptures.....yea we do ask people to examine us and give it time....we have nothing to hide brethren.
We don't make them members, God makes them members when He saves them. If you read that website that is similar to our church, you will all also find we prefer the King James Version as well. The KJV is a great BIBLE and the best english Bible available. But before the KJV, which Bible was the good one? The KJV has only been around for about 400 years. There were Bibles before the KJV. We want to keep our churches together, and we do ask for people to be in unity if they wish to be a congregational members...and our congregations are independent.
Brother Ben, I also appreciate your understanding that Patriotism is not a Christian fruit. We live in a blessed nation, but it will pass away. Christian history is not just American history..(300 years)....the history of Christianity involves 1700 years before America. Mennonites (depending on which ones) believe in the right to bear arms. We hunt, we shoot clay pigeons, yet we know that a true believer will not kill a man. If you fight, then you are of this world and not His servant. John 18:36.....A disciple does not have time to get involved in the carnal kingdoms which will all fall...while we could pick out some fallacies of the IFB churches, I will not as it would not be a testimony of the Lord that bears much fruit.
We believe our churches bear fruit, and are comparable to todays movements....our marriages stay together, we love one another, (John 13:35) we train up our children in the way they should go, yea we do believe you can have damnation if you cast off your first faith (Timothy 5:12), and we are hated by the world and religious peoples. (Matthew 10:22) Yet we are not perfect, but sinners saved by grace. Here are fruits of believers: MATTHEW CHAPTERS 5 THROUGH CHAPTER 7(A FULL SERMON) Galatians chapter 5 verses 22-24......if you do not bear these, you are not saved. Whether you were saved or not at one point doesnt matter. What matters is that you believe and repent, no matter the condition. We are eternally secure, as long as we do not depart in unbeleif. (we do not fall away through a sin) See also Romans 11:17-24....note verse 22.
Brethren, I love you all...and we will disagree a bit, but let us all believe on Him, and afterwards...Keep His commandments....even unto death.
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Post by anabean on Nov 14, 2007 10:54:43 GMT -5
KScarle,
There are also baptist groups that accept sodomites, and things like this. Yes, we are ashamed of those called Mennonites in name, but not in bible practice. Why the railing accusations? Not all Mennonites are the same. I am a Mennonite....speak thus with me or see the website! If you have questions...send emails to mennokit@gmail.com my wifes website. I assure you we are very orthodox. However, we know we are going to be hated of the world...and we realize this. Matthew 10:22
Check the website I posted earlier. There are a number of Mennonite groups who still practice the Bible. Not all baptists do neither.
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Post by anabean on Nov 14, 2007 10:56:22 GMT -5
Would any like me to post all those who call themselves baptists who are gay or accepting women preachers? Should I label all baptists the same? The Bible teaches to treat others, as you wish to be treated. Let me know if any want to know what the internet says about baptists too....but I will not do so without someone first asking me to.
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Post by Brother Ben on Nov 14, 2007 12:28:46 GMT -5
Many good points for discussion, let us be careful to create more light than heat. Discussion is good, let's all grow.
In Christian love, Bro. Ben
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Post by prv31wife on Nov 14, 2007 18:46:13 GMT -5
Hi Kristie, The sites you posted are mostly liberal Mennonite sites. Most Conservative Mennonite(if not all) live a very Biblical life. I thought Mennonite Church USA was a good site until I started looking around and found it to be very unbiblical in many of it's beliefs. I asked my dear friend who is a Conservative Mennonite about the site and he said that it was a very liberal website and that many churches that claim to be "Mennonite" are NOT Mennonite in beliefs and lifestyles. Those are the ones that have given up the headcovering,modest dress, etc. I really had no idea of any of this. We visit a Conservative Mennonite church sometimes but can't really attend fulltime because of dh's work schedule and it's over two hours away but we love the teachings and their commitment to truly serving the Lord and obeying scripture.
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Post by George on Nov 14, 2007 20:42:25 GMT -5
I see some anger in this post Brother and I am concerned about that.
I do not understand why you have determined to place all baptist's together like this? There is no global, all-encompassing term that fits any group of people or even an individual person. Perhaps it would have been better said if you would have written what the internet says about SOME baptists. And of course we all know that often the internet is not exactly the best source for reliable information by any means.
I did not take personal offense at anything you said as I have no reason to. I am a Christian first, foremost and always. Secondary to that I am a very conservative, fundamental Baptist by choice and doctrine. I belong to the group known as Bible-believing and Bible-teaching because that is what I believe our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ wants from us.
I apologize if anything I have written caused you offense. The only area I have a disagreement with is the length of time involved in allowing a person to become a member of this specific Church. To me that is adding to the Bible and is prohibited. What I see from it is people having to prove themselves to other people. It reminds me of the people in the Roman Catholic Churches having to jump through all kinds of hoops in order to become members. I need prove myself to God. Hopefully by doing that I will also prove myself to others but again I have a basic scriptural problem with folks being required to wait up to 18 months to be a member of the Church.
In Christ, George
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Post by George on Nov 14, 2007 20:49:45 GMT -5
Is that meant to be a facetious question? My word, the entire Bible is full of fundamentalist doctrine. That is what the Bible is. The fundamentalists I am familiar with dispense with all of the other things and work only from the Bible. We believe the Bible is the sole authority for both faith and living.
That is why the classes. Not attending the classes h as nothing to do with whether a person can become a member of the Church. And yes, if we can get the baptistry filled in time we will baptize that very same day if the new convert wishes it. I myself was baptized the day I was saved.
In Christ, George
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Post by Brother Randy on Nov 14, 2007 23:06:08 GMT -5
Do we not all to some degree add or take away from the bible even if it is in a small way? Are there not things as new testament saints that we don't do that is in the old testament?
While as Mennonites we have a proving time for one to become a member and part of the brotherhood , there is not proving time for one in the matter of salvation.
On the other side of the coin the IFB church I grew up in would have meetings get someone to walk down front . Lead them in a prayer then dunk them , adding them to the church roll. And a lot of the time never see them again. Now this just don't seem right neither. Now I know that the Lord is the only one that truly knows the heart, but true savation will produce a Godly work in ones life. I do believe that the reason a lot of churches are in such back shape is the fact that people did not prove them self or show that they where in agreement with the church. Thus you end up with unbelievers or one with their own agenda they what.
Now true the early church was not this way , but I don't think they had all of the false churches to deal with neither. And for the most part it was a very costly thing go become a believer back then.
I trust that this issue does not become a thing of contention here. That we can keep our eyes on the Lord and show true Christian love .
Bro Randy
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Post by prv31wife on Nov 14, 2007 23:09:51 GMT -5
Thank you Brother Randy for that.
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Post by George on Nov 15, 2007 0:10:53 GMT -5
You may rest assured there will be no contention on my part Brother Randy.
(Pro 13:10) Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom.
I have nothing to be prideful about. Everything I am and everything I have is a gift from God. How can I be prideful over that?
(Jas 1:17) Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
I am just a servant of The Lord trying my very best to be humble and doing what He would have me do. You see Brother, coming from the past life that I did I have no choice in the matter. I can either work as hard as I can to do things the way God would have me do them or I can die. That is a certainty. Perhaps if more people were in my position and in the position of many in the ministry I am the lay leader of there would be an amazing difference in our Churches. Again I say that not in a prideful way but as a matter of fact.
I have had two men who have attended RUI that died because they were just not ready. If these men had made the decision to follow the teachings of God's Holy Word as closely as they possibly could with a great deal of help from the Holy Spirit perhaps they would still be alive today and working to serve Him. When I and others like me get out of line with God things can be disastrous quite quickly.
My word, if we were to add the requirement that anyone who wanted to join our Church was completely aligned with us we would have an awfully small Church indeed. I do not believe that is God's plan.
(1Co 3:6) I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
Do you see that? It is God Who gives the increase. It is not up to man to weed out people. Our job is to lead them to Christ, get them into Church and pray the Holy Spirit touches them to lead lives conformed to the image of His Son. It is not our job to form some type of exclusive club or enclave that excludes people for whatever reason. My word, in my line of work for God, that of Christian counseling, I have been guilty of bringing people to Church who reek of alcohol. I have brought people to Church who have tremendous drug problems. I have brought many unsavory characters to Church. And you know what Brother/ some of them have turned out to be more dedicated to Christ than many folks who have supposedly been saved all their lives.
No, I mean no contention. We certainly disagree on this subject and again I have seen no scriptural basis for making a person wait that length of time to become a Church member. The idea was put forth a bit ago of that was then and this is now. So the question becomes who determines what parts of the Bible we don't have to follow because that was then and this was now? Not only that but where does the compromise stop?
Do we all add or take away from the Bible? I pray I do not. I do not believe my Pastor does and I know of a number of other folks close to me who do not.
In Christ, George
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Post by Brother Ben on Nov 15, 2007 9:00:47 GMT -5
I see here an underlying theme which is the true heartbeat of God.
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom 1:16
How needful it is in these days of apostasy and false doctrine to be sure that those we minister to are reached with the authentic, organic, gospel of Jesus Christ. I see in many groups a total misrepresentation of the true gospel. Some see it as a magic prayer, some see it as a series of actions, some see it as all kinds of contrived theories and plans.
What is salvation? It is when the Holy Spirit convicted sinner comes before a Holy God without any personal remedy, and turns by simple faith to the Lord Jesus Christ. Throwing himself, like a drowning man upon a life raft, upon the loving, out-stretched, arms of Christ, the Lamb of God. ONLY his blood can save and IT IS real salvation.
At this point a person is made a partaker of the divine life of Christ and is placed in Him and He in the converted sinner.
Let us work to bring men to Christ.
Bro. Ben
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Post by anabean on Nov 15, 2007 10:18:31 GMT -5
No contention here. My only point was that we all have some unscriptural practices to a point and we cannot go pointing out other churches unscriptural practices when we ourselves have them. If we have an altar call, then lets not slay those whom have a proving period. If we have a proving period, then lets not slay them that have an altar call. It is not right for one to point out the error in another brother when they themselves have it too. If someone has graven images or an altar call, they are every bit as having an unscriptural Roman Catholic practice as a proving period supposedly is.
I too apologize to the board here. The only reason I asked about seeing what the net says about baptists is because someone first linked up a lot of apostacized mennonite websites. I would like all to do the same for us as well....do not lump all Mennonites into the same category. If this is done, we will not lump all Baptists into the same category. I realize Baptists are as diverse as Mennonites. From this point on, if one makes an accusation of the Mennonite brethren, I will ignore it so that no contention arises.
Our proving period is not for salvation, only for congregational membership. Saved people are put into God's church whether they are a member of our congregation or not.
Again, I apologize to all on this board and wish to be friends and brethren in the Lord.
Amen brother Ben! Salvation is of the Lord! It occurs when the Spirit convicts us and then we believe on Christ for salvation for it is His blood that washes our sins away.
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kscarle
Member
Philippians 4:4, Romans 12:1, John 14:15
Posts: 97
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Post by kscarle on Nov 15, 2007 11:15:02 GMT -5
I do apologize if My post has caused irritation...If someone would have read through I also agree that baptists are many and diversified... I have family in other baptists groups that are very liberal. I also asked because I did not know, and was expecting a kind response. You will probably find there are more liberal baptists because there are so many denominations of baptists, but even in individual groups we vary. I know little about mennonites and was not slandering but sincerely seeking to know from one what your stance was. I know that I am certaintly a Baptist through and through, but I am not a Baptist brider. I do practice head covering and modesty, my husband also believes in modesty. I do appreciate the modesty of the mennonite women when I am out and about. I want to learn more, not to become one, but because I believe in moral values.
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