|
Post by George on Nov 15, 2007 16:07:20 GMT -5
The subject of an altar call being unscriptural has been mentioned here twice. I do not believe it to be unscriptural and actually believe it was ordained by our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.
(Mat 5:23) Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; (Mat 5:24) Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
If that is not speaking of an altar call I do not know what it is. I have researched this subject at great length. In the New Testament Church only one sacrifice is commanded to be brought to the altar. That sacrifice is ones self. It is spoken of in Romans 12. We must look at it as telling us that when we bring ourselves to the altar...
There was also mention of elevating the apostles to a place higher than they ought to be. My goodness, did not God elevate them Himself? Has God spoken to any others through the Holy Spirit to cause those others to write the books of the New Testament? I think not. Does the apostolic office still exist today? Not according to the Bible. These were very special men and I doubt anyone would seriously dispute the fact that the apostle Paul was perhaps the second greatest man in the Bible; at least in the New Testament.
In Christ, George
|
|
|
Post by anabean on Nov 15, 2007 17:14:44 GMT -5
The "Altar Call" did not come into play until Ameican years. Even a Baptist Champion, Charles Spurgeon would not institute it or have anything to do with it. The scriptures you mentioned have to do with reconciling with your brother, not with salvation. You have no scripture for an altar call dealing with salvation. It is an added institution. I could run and get "proof" texts for certain things as well, but that is not scriptural. The scriptures you provided in no way noted an "altar call". It is a new, human instution added for salvation. The scriptures you gave did not deal with salvation. Just because works are mentioned in the NT, does not mean they are requried to attain salvation. No where does Jesus institute an altar call! If you want to have an altar for reconciling with your brother, fine....but it was never instituted by Christ for salvation. Salvation is simple, believe in Jesus Christ...and if you truly trust Him in your heart.....repentance will follow as we are also commanded to repent. Man can be saved without an altar call. (every person in the NT was saved without one, so why add it to salvation?) We do not need to "help" God get sinners down the isle. If someone truly wants to repent, you cannot stand in God's way, and an altar call is not the bridge to Jesus.
If you want to make examples commands then you must have everything in common as well. Acts 2:44-45
|
|
|
Post by anabean on Nov 15, 2007 17:15:25 GMT -5
And the only difference between our "tradition" and yours is ours does not involve salvation.
|
|
|
Post by George on Nov 15, 2007 21:17:42 GMT -5
My word Brother, did I mention the word "salvation" in any part of my post about altar calls? I went back and read it and I don't see that reference. I believe it best if I withdraw from any further comment on this thread. Each time I post something you get very defensive. You seem to want to tear down my belief structure and my Church while promoting your beliefs and traditions. Yes, I said traditions because when I post something I do it with scriptural basis and go to the point of explaining that basis. Yet when you respond you tear down without giving scriptural basis. That is not edifying in any way and I choose to no longer be involved in it.
Let me explain something to you. I have a great love for the people here on these forums. I am in complete agreement with almost everything that is presented here. We share a mutual love for The Lord and His things. Brother Ben has allowed me the distinct pleasure of being a "co-laborer." His trust and belief in my practices and belief structure mean a lot to me. I respect him highly.
To this point I have not had anyone to attempt to discredit my belief system. If you doubt my dedication to the things of God and His Word let us just part ways. The start of this whole thing was when I questioned the scriptural basis for making a person wait up to 18 months for becoming a member of your church. That was the sum total of it. That basis has still not been presented. Instead of finding a Biblical way of supporting this tradition you have chosen to turn your ire toward not only me but Baptists in general as witnessed by at least one of your posts. That is uncalled for and not acceptable to me.
In Christ, George Groce
|
|
|
Post by George on Nov 15, 2007 21:25:41 GMT -5
Incidentally the scripture reference you placed at the bottom of your last post completely disproves your tradition of waiting 18 months for Church membership. If you would have included the entire passage instead of taking two verses out of context you would have seen that for yourself.
(Act 2:44) And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
(Act 2:45) And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
(Act 2:46) And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
(Act 2:47) Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
My word, would you look at that? The Lord added to the Church DAILY such as should be saved. God saw fit to add people to the Church the very day they were saved. What man has the right to withhold that which God has ordained?
Of course the two verses you quoted also say the people sold ALL their possessions and goods and distributed them according to need. Do you or have you done that? If not then why would you refer me to those verses in support of your traditions?
In Christ, George Groce
|
|
|
Post by Brother Ben on Nov 16, 2007 9:03:00 GMT -5
My dearest Brother George,
You are, indeed a co-laborer, and I have known you long enough to say, if our Baptist brethren would commit the amount of time studying and applying scripture to their lives like you have and serve with the commitment you have made to RUI and the many people it reaches, our churches would be a different place.
Your ideas on scripture are valid and we appreciate them. They only thing we need to be open enough to at least "admit" is that the church of our era, is not particularly the "same" as that apostolic church. I beleive many good brethren try, but we ALL have things that are, at the least, extra biblical, but not always "un-biblical."
For example, where we all lack, the early church had signs and wonders. The Lord for some reason, has decided to make that less significant in the church of our day. I am not a dispensationalist, so I beleive and have heard of, the Lord doing AMAZING things in the churches of our day. It is mostly in the persecuted churches, but things that make our ears tingle do happen. But...not to us...why?
We have to admit, it is our desire to strive for the apostolic pattern, but also admit, we just don't have what they had, and we do somethings different that they do. Even our theology is different. We try to closely adhere, but historically we can see that their theology was not as systematic as many groups is this day. It does not make us wrong, just different from that apostolic day.
We should in earnestness, strive for that mark, but be humble enough to confess, NONE of us is hitting it on 100% of the points. So what is the conclusion of the whole matter?
Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.
In the fundamentals...unity In the secondary things...liberty In all things...charity.
To my all my dear brethren on the board, Christian love and prayers,
Ben
|
|
|
Post by George on Nov 16, 2007 16:02:52 GMT -5
Brother, and yes, you are my Brother, you do not need to retreat from the forums. Speaking for myself things were not going in a way I thought conducive to the edification of the members of the boards. That is why I chose to withdraw from that particular thread.
Defense of principles is an honorable thing if they can be backed up by scripture. However making blanket statements and professing things as being correct without scriptural basis is wrong in my eyes.
You see I try my very best to live by the Bible. I don't care what the Baptist preacher may have to say. I don't care what the Mennonite preacher may have to say. Tell me what Almighty God has to say! That is what I want to hear. Nothing more but nothing less.
I love you as a brother in Christ. We have some points we disagree with. However I wonder if you have gone in and read any of my posts in the Restoration Place forum? If so you can plainly see they are an exposition of Scripture and not any part of personal opinion or the dogma of any sect or denomination. To me being Baptist and fundamental at that, is not a religion. I disdain from using the word religion. It is a faith and it is Christianity; at least in the way I attempt to practice it. None of us are anywhere near perfect, particularly me. I would willfully challenge Paul for the title of chief among sinners as I believe a lot of us would. The point is that I try the very best I can with a lot of help from the Holy Spirit of God to not only profess the things of the Bible but to live them also. That is why I often challenge people to back up statements using the Bible. If that cannot be done I consider it a waste of the Lord's time which is my time He allows me that could be better spent on working toward being conformed to the image of His Son than trying to defend unscriptural things because they happen to be tradition in any particular sect or denomination.
I would much rather I be removed from the forums than you. The Bible says that I must be williing to give for my Brother and that I am more than willing to do.
In Christ, George
|
|
|
Post by George on Nov 16, 2007 16:27:25 GMT -5
Amen Brother Ben! Yet you see that is the exact point of my posts on tis subject. I am working very diligently to attempt to make my Church as close as we can possibly be to the model of the New Testament Church of the Bible. I hear some here pondering how I can do that when I am but a layman and member of the Church?
I am the lay leader of a ministry in my Church. As such I have an open conduit to my Pastor; actually to all four of my Pastors. My senior Pastor and I are the only ones involved in the Church hierarchy for RUI. We freely exchange ideas and concerns on a weekly basis. (Oh I would that all Church members had access to their Senior Pastor for an hour a week!) My Pastor has told me that he has learned from me as well as I from him.
(Mat 7:14) Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
I attempt to follow that narrow way as best I can with a tremendous amount of help from the Holy Spirit. If that attempt offends some I am sorry but I must continue on in that way. I do not abide any adding to the Scriptures nor do I abide any taking away from them.
Perhaps I am one of very few. That is indeed a blessing to me. However I have no pride involved in any of my life as I have nothing to be prideful of. George Groce on his own is nothing more than a hopeless, drunken drug addict. George Groce with God as his guide is a Christian counselor with a great deal of Bible knowledge and the God-given ability to teach others how to apply that Bible knowledge to their lives.
I remain the humble servant of God gleefully.
In Christ, George
|
|
|
Post by George on Nov 16, 2007 16:33:38 GMT -5
May I ask in all sincerity Brother how you can make such statements about the Church I am a member of? Have you ever been to the Church I attend? If not you certainly seem to know a lot about it. Again I say that you are making blanket statements out of a defensive posture that do not apply to all Churches. I urge you to focus on the issues and to not strike out at all Baptist Churches because you have felt compromised for some reason of another.
In Christ, George
|
|
|
Post by anabean on Nov 16, 2007 17:25:03 GMT -5
George,
Worry yourself not. It is I that I need to keep tabs on. I need to crucify mine own flesh and self will.
Anabean
|
|
|
Post by jeff on Nov 16, 2007 20:01:21 GMT -5
I’ve not posted here in a while. I stayed gone for a while and have lurked for the last few weeks. George, I encourage you to review one thing you said. However I have no pride involved in any of my life as I have nothing to be prideful of. No Pride? None of us can make that claim. When anabean made mention of a proving period for members to join their earthly fellowship, you let him have it. As a brother, I’m going to say, you were wrong. Your inability to let this matter drop has caused it to escalate to the point that a fellow Christian was ready to leave. I'm nobody here. I'm just asking that for the sake of the peace here, please let it go. (Please forgive my indelicate delivery, but that's what's on my mind... and my heart)
|
|
|
Post by George on Nov 17, 2007 11:05:12 GMT -5
Let me tell you Brother Jeff I have reviewed and reviewed the problem of pride in my life. It used to jump up and bite me quite often. However thanks a great deal to some counseling sessions with my Senior Pastor I have learned to determine when personal pride gets in my way. When I say I have no pride I mean just that. I am not a perfect man but when it does get in the way I know how to identify if and I know how to deal with it as soon as it happens. Praise God for the leading of the Holy Spirit in this area. It has been extremely difficult for me to overcome.
As far as getting all over another Brother I do not see that. I merely asked for scriptural evidence which was not forthcoming. At that point I, along with every other Baptist in the world was greatly criticized by the Brother. I did make apologies and if you read the thread I also stated that i would much rather I leave the forums rather than he.
If you would read farther I have also said that I will no longer be involved in that particular discussion. I have chosen to let it be yet you have chosen to revive it. I do not understand that at all. Rather than chime in on the boards at the very end of the discussion there is a method of sending personal messages here if you have a difficulty with something I have done.
I feel I do not have to defend my faith. The Lord knows my heart as I pray others here do. I have not attempted to tear down anyone's practices or traditions. Again, I merely questioned the scriptural basis for a particular tradition which I thought completely wrong. If you read over the thread I have attempted to use the Bible as my guide. That is all I ask of anyone in return.
I humbly apologize for any ill feelings I may have caused by my stance on God's Holy Word.
In Christ, George
|
|
|
Post by prv31wife on Nov 17, 2007 11:53:36 GMT -5
I was looking over my post in reply to Kristie and I realized I made some boo boos in my post that didn't make sense so I fixed them. I have also been reading this thread and I'm practically in tears over what is appearing(and I said appearing to be!) a Baptist vs Mennonite debateand I'm so upset by what I'm reading. I thought this board was about brothers and sisters in the Lord wanting to live a Biblical lifestyle regardless of whether you're a Baptist, Mennonite or non denominational but at this moment I'm not seeing it. I do pray that the Anabean and anyone else remain members here. Each has his or her own unique gift to bring to the group. I hope I didn't offend anyone here. I'm so upset at the moment and I'm sorry if anyone is offended.
|
|
|
Post by jeff on Nov 17, 2007 12:51:38 GMT -5
At that point I, along with every other Baptist in the world was greatly criticized by the Brother. I did make apologies and if you read the thread I also stated that i would much rather I leave the forums rather than he. If you would read farther I have also said that I will no longer be involved in that particular discussion. I have chosen to let it be yet you have chosen to revive it. I do not understand that at all. Rather than chime in on the boards at the very end of the discussion there is a method of sending personal messages here if you have a difficulty with something I have done. I am a Baptist and didn't feel that I was being criticized. He questioned the scriptural basis for some things that Baptists do, after you questioned his. Frankly, I question the scriptural basis for a lot of things that happen in Baptist churches today. You did allude to the fact that it was over from your post at 3:02 yesterday, and then proceeded to pick apart his words in two more posts at 3:27 and 3:33. I didn't revive it. You never let it go. I believe I'm allowed to "chime in" whenever I feel led to. I felt led to post in the thread and not in a PM because the friendly, brotherly nature of this board was disrupted in the thread. Can't we all just agree that we have different ideas, none of which put us in danger of hellfire, and let it go at that?
|
|
|
Post by George on Nov 17, 2007 18:59:56 GMT -5
Amen!
In Christ, George
|
|