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Post by mrjob on Sept 8, 2012 1:08:38 GMT -5
Hello All:
Isn't it true that all Christians have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
The prophet Jeremiah wrote
Jeremiah 31:33 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (KJV)
It was impossible for God to write his law on the hearts of men because without the Holy Spirit our hearts are harder than those tablets of stone. That is why He allowed divorce, exacting vengeance and going to war. The absence of the Holy Spirit is also why Judas doubted Christ, why the disciples couldn't remain awake in the garden "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." It is also why all his disciples fled and why Peter denied him three times.
During his ministry Christ spoke the words of the New Covenant when he magnified the law in the Sermon on the Mount and other places, but it could not have been in effect until after his death. Until his followers received the Holy Spirit they were as ill-equipped to follow Christ's teaching as as the Israelites were to keep the first covenant.
After Christ's death and resurrection he appeared to his disciples and in John 20:21-22 21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: (KJV)
After spending forty days with the disciples after his resurrection Christ ascended to heaven and ten days later on the Day of Pentecost he sent the promised Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:4 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. (KJV)
With the Holy Spirit the Apostles were bold and Peter would never again deny Christ. Christian were now equipped to love God with all their heart, soul and mind and love their neighbors as themselves. Now they could turn the other cheek, love their enemies, bless those who cursed them and stay faithful in marriages. They even sold their possessions and gave to the poor (Luke 12: 33) in Acts 4: This was God fulfilling his promises made in Jeremiah and repeated in
Hebrews 8:6-11 6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. (KJV)
Seeing the power of the Holy Spirit to transform lives and since our Father is in the business of "bringing many sons to glory" Hebrews 2:10 I see salvation a very durable. He calls us and his word will not return to him void. It will accomplish that which He pleases. Isaiah 55: 11
Even though David asked God to not takes His spirit away (showing that it can be taken away) it was the presence of the spirit that caused David to see his sin and repent with brokenness and contrition making him a man after God's own heart.
Though God may not send us a prophet like he did David he will admonish and correct us as we need it; thus bearing more and bringing him more glory.
James
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Post by mrjob on Sept 8, 2012 2:11:17 GMT -5
John: you wrote Guadalupe,
I have no intention to "debate" with you either. This is for several reasons.
One, you are a woman. I would no more debate doctrinal issues with you online than I would in person. The scriptures are clear in regards to the place of women in these matters (1 Tim. 2:11,12; 1 Cor. 14:34). Those passages are just as applicable to a woman's place and behaviour online as well as in church or anywhere else.
Two, since you keep mentioning "we," I assume you are married. If so, it is not my place to try to teach you anything. God has given you a husband to teach you (1 Cor.13:45). If your husband is wrong and teaching you wrong, that is between him and God. This may or may not be a "church" setting where the above scriptures apply. There is some room for personal interpretation here so long as love and building up of the body is foremost. I prefer to think of online forums as the same as setting in someones living room where we would be polite to each other. If my wife and I were in your living room with you and your wife I wouldn't expect the women to sit there quietly while the two of us did all the talking. There are instances of Women teaching men in the NT. Acts 18:26 26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly. (KJV) Also, Though Timothy was not circumcised Eunice and Lois brought him up in the faith. The two scriptures that mention these women also mention their faith. Acts 16:1 and 2 Timothy 1: 5 Also, how about the unbelieving man who learns from his believing wife. While the NT does prohibit women teaching in the assembly there is no prohibition in learning from women elsewhere. I learn from my wife and daughters everyday. The other day I learned a Godly lesson from a woman. She is very poor and her cell phone broke and it was going to take 3 weeks to get it replaced. I think she does temporary work and the only way she can get work is if they can get a hold of her and the phone is her only link. She prayed about it and sent her phone off on Tuesday and got it back on Friday. As she told the story she wept and praised God. I was humbled because she could give God so much praise for what seem like a small thing and I was reminded of how much more I could praise God for in my own life. Yes men can learn from women. James
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Post by way195 on Sept 8, 2012 6:17:59 GMT -5
In reply to the discourse Brother John and Guadalupe were having concerning when the New Testament officially began... Like it says in Hebrews, the 'death of the testator' is the only way a testament or will comes into effect. However, Jesus teachings during his ministry are not at all made less legitimate because it was still the Old Testament; Jesus was introducing the New Testament and teaching the standards and principles he wanted his followers to practice in the new dispensation. Love your enemies...pray for them who dispitefully use you... and all the rest his teachings are for us today to live by. Anyway, let's return to our initial subject again if possible; maybe we need to start another thread to discuss wether the commentators' teachings were infallible etc... I won't say I didn't state any verses out of context, but you obviously didn't read the verses with an open honest heart dividing the word of truth. You yourself can see from these verses and many other verses that Paul himself did not believe in unconditional eternal security or he wouldn't have written Philipians 3:13 and other similar verses. If you can discredite the NT verses I stated in post #13 from the Bible go ahead. But if you're just going to argue with human reasoning I will not waste my time here. Like I said in my introduction, I have many times before been turned off by people who are not willing to look at the entire scriptures in context and come to a conclusion without a heated argument.
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Post by way195 on Sept 8, 2012 8:30:32 GMT -5
^I didn't come up with this myself, but I have to agree especially with points 3 and 4. Why are the so many exhortations to be holy when we can get to heaven without that. There is so much scripture that doesn't make sense when look at it through this doctrine.
Revelations 3:4-5 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
What about those who do not overcome?
Jude 1:3-6 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Hebrews 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
1 Peter 3:16-17As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
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Post by Guadalupe on Sept 8, 2012 9:45:06 GMT -5
In reply to the discourse Brother John and Guadalupe were having concerning when the New Testament officially began... Like it says in Hebrews, the 'death of the testator' is the only way a testament or will comes into effect. However, Jesus teachings during his ministry are not at all made less legitimate because it was still the Old Testament; Jesus was introducing the New Testament and teaching the standards and principles he wanted his followers to practice in the new dispensation. Love your enemies...pray for them who dispitefully use you... and all the rest his teachings are for us today to live by. In the interest of sharing how we hammered out the Truth on the anvil of Scripture here is the study the plan we used. My husband and I realized with study of the Bible verses at hand, the examination of the original Biblical language in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, and the reputable commentators such as Spurgeon, Strong's, J Vernon McGee, et al that there are two definitions coming into play here for the word "testament". There is the worldly and secular definition referring to the law hence the interpretation "death of the testator". Then there is the Biblical definition of testament as meaning the covenant or commitment between God and His people (see Strong's Greek translations). The accepted Biblical definition of covenant and testament is: an agreement that brings about a relationship of commitment between God and his people. The Jewish faith is based on the biblical covenants made with Abraham, Moses, and DavidIf we go with the secular definition of testament regarding the Law, then technically speaking the death of David would be the end of the Old Testament. However the reputable commentators agree that with John 1, etc. we see the New Covenant/Testament come alive in Jesus at the moment that the second person of the Trinity became man, His conception. A new commitment was made by God to His people when he took on the form of a human. He gave us His Word v.14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses (note: Old Testament), but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ (New Testament). 18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. == Hence my husband and I see the New Testament as beginning with the conception of God made flesh and dwelling among us and its completion and perfection was in the Resurrection. The Bible must be taken in its entirety as Wayne is attempting to hammer out. My husband and I recommend that Strong's Concordance and Dictionary of Biblical languages be used in addition to the reputable Biblical commentators so that we can test our understandings with many of good scholarship in order to avoid straying into our own prideful paradigms. If you cannot afford a Strong's and the other resources here are three links that you may find helpful and are free online. www.biblestudytools.com/concordances/strongs-exhaustive-concordance/www.biblestudytools.com/concordances.org/strongs.htm
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Post by Brother Ben on Sept 8, 2012 12:47:04 GMT -5
In the case of the New Covenant, as with ANY topic the bible trumps ANY commentary, theology, or opinion. Bro. John quite aptly proved without a shadow of doubt when the New Covenant began, that being at the death of the Testater.
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Post by Brother Ben on Sept 10, 2012 8:18:35 GMT -5
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
The Law as described in the Old Covenant was a shadow of Christ, the "things" to come. That shadow was manifested in the Old Covenant as "sacrifices" which were offered year by year. They were continued year after year to take away sins. This was what the Day of Atonement was all about. The "covenant" was made so people could have their sins removed, even though on a temporal basis. They could not only do it once. This is very important to remember.
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Notice in verse nine is says, "He taketh away the first [covenant] that he may establish the second [covenant.]" Through this "new" covenant, we are sanctified, or set apart unto Christ through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ. This offering was not made at his birth, but at his death, just like the death of those bulls and goats that could NEVER take away thier sins for good, only year to year.
Furthermore, the sacrifices under the old covenant could never take away sins, only roll them forward one more year.
Exo 30:10 And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements: once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it is most holy unto the LORD.
Salvation was not perfected yet. It was a shadow. The sacrifice for sin, (by the death of the testator,) could only roll the sins forward one more year. They were waiting for Shiloh to come, the promised Messiah. Verse ten goes on to tell us something very important, ". . . the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
Why "once for all?" because this was the sacrifice that not only would roll the sins forward like under the old covenant, but was able to wash them away forever. Once for all.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Forever means forever. Period. The New Covenant that was made at the offering of the body of Christ at his death was able to perfect FOR EVER, them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Unlike the old covenant, this covenant put God's laws into their hearts and minds. No longer was religion something that happened at the Temple or Tabernacle by a priest, but the God of the old covenant now dwelt in thier hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, God declared, ". . . their sins and iniquities will I remember no more." Again, no more, means NO MORE.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Under the new covenant, there is one sacrifice, once for all, and there is no more offering for sin. We, unlike those under the old covenant, are able to enter into the holiest of all by the blood of Jesus. This should make clear that the New Covenant was not made at his birth, but at his death on the cross. And, this sacrifice is able to perfect for ever them that are sanctified. So, how are we sanctified? Here comes a passage we looked at earlier in this discussion:
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 1Co 6:11 And such were [past tense] some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Did you catch that? Those under the new covenant are washed, not just having their sins rolled forward one more year. Those under the new covenant are sanctified, or set apart unto Christ. We are justified, that is to say, in the court of heaven we have been declared forgiven and righteous in the name of the Lord Jesus. How was this sancification accomplished? By the works of the flesh? NO, Paul has just told us it was done BY the Spirit of our God, (vs. 11.)
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
It is bewitching, even devilish to imply that the works of my flesh can in any way, shape, or form, justifiy me in the eyes of God. Read the text, how are we made perfect in the eyes of God, by the works of the flesh, i.e. commandment keeping? No, no, a thousand times, NO! We are made perfect or sactified by the working of the Holy Spirit in and through us. But surely, there is SOME work that is expected of me, rigtht? Well, yes, there is:
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
When we believe on Christ, the Testator of the New Covenant, he rights his words and ways upon our hearts. We are sancitifed by the Holy Spirit of God. Yes, we may have times when our hearts are not walking in the light he has shed upon us, but he is the Good Shepherd. He will go out into the hills and hollows to find his sheep.
So, how do we come up with these ideas? It is the invasion of Reformed Theology upon the pure doctrine of the Apostles. Remember Calvin and Arminus were students of Reformed Theology. They both had some good points, but we must remember Reformed theology is Reformed Catholicism. They are the "Fathers of False Doctrine." They failed to rightly divide scripture. Just as Hebrews is primarily to to the Jews, but has secondary truthes we can glean, so, the Gospels and other New Testament writings directed to the Jews have great things for us, BUT, we must never confuse thier primary focus. This is what happened when those to whom were trusted the Holy Oracles improperly divided scriptures and came up with teachings contrary to the message of the New Covenant.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
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Post by Guadalupe on Sept 10, 2012 9:13:41 GMT -5
Thank you for these references for study, Bro. Ben. Are these your own commentaries from discernment or do you have resources that you used in addition to study of the Bible? You mentioned that you have read Bercot so we are just wondering.
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Post by way195 on Sept 10, 2012 11:35:45 GMT -5
Brother Ben, can you yet explain Revelation Chapter 3:1-6 to us in light of this subject?
You see what my point is? Yes, there are a few verses in the Bible that may seem to imply that one cannot lose their salvation, but if you take into consideration the rest of the NT, comparing scripture with scripture, I see no way that you can come out with this concept. Yes, praise God, there is eternal security to those who continue and abide in Christ, but if we choose our own way of sin and living after the flesh, can we still expect to inheret eternal life?
Luke 9:62 No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.
John 8:30-32 As he spake these words, many believed on him. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Matthew 24:12-13 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved
The word saved in Matt 24:13 above means: "to rescue from danger or destruction, to save a suffering one (from perishing)". The word endured in the Vines signifies "to remain in a place instead of leaving it."
Let me share an example; you may tell your child that he/she me have a cookie if they perform a job completely and thoroghly by a set time. If you find that the job was not done on time, and not done completely, will you still give your child that cookie? No! After God has given us so many commands in the NT to live holy and unblameable in his sight, how is it that he can allow into heaven one how has blatantly turned against him and sinned? This would not be the just and righteous God that the scriptures talk so much about.
1 Timothy 1:18-20 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare; Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
Simon the sorcerer is an example of one who sinned and was condemned(Acts 8:12-24).
Notice these quotes by the early church forfathers concerning this.
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Post by Brother Ben on Sept 10, 2012 19:18:16 GMT -5
Thank you for these references for study, Bro. Ben. Are these your own commentaries from discernment or do you have resources that you used in addition to study of the Bible? You mentioned that you have read Bercot so we are just wondering. No, these are strictly observations from the text itself. I've found the best commentary on the bible is the bible.
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Post by Brother Ben on Sept 10, 2012 19:22:32 GMT -5
Brother Ben, can you yet explain Revelation Chapter 3:1-6 to us in light of this subject? You see what my point is? Yes, there are a few verses in the Bible that may seem to imply that one cannot lose their salvation, but if you take into consideration the rest of the NT, comparing scripture with scripture, I see no way that you can come out with this concept. Yes, praise God, there is eternal security to those who continue and abide in Christ, but if we choose our own way of sin and living after the flesh, can we still expect to inheret eternal life? No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God. As he spake these words, many believed on him. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved The word saved in above means: "to rescue from danger or destruction, to save a suffering one (from perishing)". The word endured in the Vines signifies "to remain in a place instead of leaving it." Let me share an example; you may tell your child that he/she me have a cookie if they perform a job completely and thoroghly by a set time. If you find that the job was not done on time, and not done completely, will you still give your child that cookie? No! After God has given us so many commands in the NT to live holy and unblameable in his sight, how is it that he can allow into heaven one how has blatantly turned against him and sinned? This would not be the just and righteous God that the scriptures talk so much about. This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare; Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.Simon the sorcerer is an example of one who sinned and was condemned(). Notice these quotes by the early church forfathers concerning this. Wayne if I compare scripture with scripture PROPERLY, then the preponderance of New Testament truth for thr Church points to eternal life for the REAL believer. Furthermore, Rev. 3:1-6 is in reference to a church, not an individual. However, a promise was left to those who overcome. Rev 12 explains how tribulation saints overcome, "by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony. . . " Also, the Matt. 24 verse is an OFTEN misapplied about enduring to the end. Who is doing the enduring IN CONTEXT? Enduring to the end of what IN CONTEXT?
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Post by way195 on Sept 10, 2012 19:36:20 GMT -5
Yes indeed, to the REAL believer there can be a confidence that all is clear in our relationship with Christ we CAN have the assurance in our hearts that we are Christs' and if we were to die suddenly we would go to heaven. As we remain in that position our eternal destiny is sure, it is the 'unconditional' part of the doctrine that is clearly brought into question.
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
^The 'church' referred to in Revelations in formed from many individuals together. When I reffer to church I am referring to the many indivduals together that make a church.
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Post by Brother Ben on Sept 10, 2012 20:44:15 GMT -5
When it comes down to it the root of the teaching that one can lose their salvation is self-righteousness, pride, and/or willful ignorance of scripture. To teach thus is to call God a liar, deny the grace of God.
To insist upon this teaching could cast suspicion on the basis of their very salvation, after all, in "what" are they ultimately trusting in, the atonement of Christ's blood or the "good works" of man's flesh.
Further discussion is closed. Thank you.
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