Doctrine differences & Charity Godly Home tapes

[restored]

How right you are about people not wanting to hear "the truth" especially if it contradicts our life style. We had a guest preacher fill our pulpit a couple of weeks ago, since our pastors' father past away, he was actually my pastor years ago. We enjoyed his message more than any message we have heard in church in a long while. He talked about men taking there place and how men today don't take there place in the home and church. He also said that women don't either and that if more women would take their God appointed place and role then men would do likewise. He preached more on this basic topic and my dh and myself walked out feeling that our toes had been stepped on but refreshed at the same time. There was no sugar coating of his message. We (dh and I) both agreed that his message was NOT well received. Our own pastor's wife is not a keeper at home so this was a foreign concept and message in our church. Well, at least the Pruetts got something out of the message that day.
As to Charity Ministries, we too have their Godly Home series as well as thier Godly Courtship set. It too came at a time in our lives when we needed it. We still listen to these tapes and a few on-line on occasion. We do not agree with all of their doctrinal statement, but we do know that they do have alot of truth there that our churches today are missing. We continue to listen and glean. But a Godly Home series by some good Headcovering Baptist would be much appreciated. HINT HINT!!!
Allen and Heather

[rejoice]

I must say that Charity Ministries was like a life saver to our family. Their tapes have been such a blessing to our home. We have met and love so many of the people.
I do understand the other side about the different issues that come up. Oh my, it is so hard to know what is right anymore. There is so much confusion it seems. We knew we couldn't fully embrace the Chairty doctrine and we truly felt like misfits. But, we are thankful, so very thankful, for their ministry. I believe the Lord has used it to touch and change so many lives.
We are very blessed to find out that there are head covering Baptists out there now! WOW! Maybe there is a place for us!

[benshelpmeet]

I like what Bro. Ben had to say...


Re: Doctrine differences & Charity Godly Home tape
« Reply #5 on Mar 2, 2005, 2:54pm »

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I think "in general" the messages in the godly home series tapes are good. My only problem is that the average person hears the tapes, doesn't know about all the doctrinal difference between Charity and historic Biblical Baptist belief, and oft go head over heals for the Charity movement. If they have stout conviction on the biggest hurddle, i.e., eternal security, they will eventually be graciously shown the exit door. I just wish they had a intro packet for interested listeners so they would know what they are getting themselves into when they become involved with Charity.

Let me say in fairness, I have met some fine brethren in the Charity movement. Like any movement, there are sincere wonderful Christians there, but they do and will make the doctrinal issue one of division. If they know someone is strong on the security of the believer, he will never get an opportunity to speak on that issue. You must squelch your Biblical convictions. It is better for us to pray that the Lord of the harvest would send forth workers to build conservative, head covering, Baptist assemblies.

I like what one brother told me, "It is better for us to stay friends with them from a distance, rather than enemies up close." I am not against them, I just think people need to be informed. The ignorant Baptist that is disappointed with the "disappointing" status of many of the fundamental churches can easily become enamered (sp?) with the modesty, big families, truly lovely singing, strong preaching, etc. However, we need not abandon the historic Baptist faith, we need to revive and retool for our next generation.

Bro. Ben

Why don't you brothers start preaching the messages we would like to hear, send me a copy, and lets have our own 'The Home: Built God's Way' series?? Just a thought.

P.S. Regarding Vision Forum, I like alot of what I have seen in this very conservative Presbyterian movement, but I do issue a word of carefulness about some of the over emphasis on patriotism. We need to build strong disciples of Christ, not strong American patriots. One day our fellow Americans will round up believers becuase they are, in the words of Jerry Falwell, the lunatic fringe, as he spoke of fundamental Baptist believers. I am an ambassador for another country. I cannot be an American patriot. I am thankful for my country, but I will not die for her. I am crucified with Christ and counted as a sheep slain for His cause.

Extra words for thought,
Ben


I have been getting alot of e-mails from Baptist ladies who are concidering going to a charity church (or are already at one) or a Mennonite or Amish church. We need to know that our doctrine will not be excepted there.

Love, ~ sister Darlene ~

[sticktotheoldway]

Brothers and Sisters,

For those of you who are interested in the head veil, here is an excellent verse:

Isaiah 47:1-3

Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon, sit on the ground: there is no throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called tender and delicate. Take the millstones, and grind meal: [glow=red,2,300]uncover thy locks[/glow], make bare the leg, uncover the thigh, pass over the rivers. Thy [glow=red,2,300]nakedness[/glow] shall be uncovered, yea, thy [glow=red,2,300]shame[/glow] shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a man.

Also, someone mentioned that 1 Corinthians 11 talks about the head, not the hair, being veiled. They are right. Women ought to cover their heads (excluding the face- Genesis 38:15). The head includes the sides, the ears, and possibly the forehead, chin, and neck.

Someone mentioned about a woman's glory needs to be covered. They are correct. Don't forget though that hair is a women's covering. It does not cover much when it is up. A woman's hair needs to be down but fully covered.

In Christian love,
Matthew Drayer

[sticktotheoldway]

Brothers and Sisters,
Please help me out. My church is Baptist, it takes a stand on the believer's eternal security. I personally have struggled in this issue. I see verses on both sides and I don't know what is right. My Pastor is preaching through a list of conditional salvation verses I gave him attempting to disprove that they teach conditional salvation. If anybody is willing to discuss this topic with me, I would be glad. I would especially appreciate help in the area of refutation of supposed conditional salvation verses.

In Christian love,
Matthew Drayer

[MrsDeweySmith]

Someone mentioned about a woman's glory needs to be covered. They are correct. Don't forget though that hair is a women's covering. It does not cover much when it is up. A woman's hair needs to be down but fully covered.

Good point there, Bro Matthew....I will admit, I wear my hair up under my hanging veil, but I had not actually put thought into how you've phrased it. My hair certainly covers much less when pinned up, as opposed to being left down. I guess I mainly looked at it as keeping my hair, all of it, for my husband and my family, and not for those in the world.

But a good point. What food for some prayer time! Thank you for challenging my outlook and stirring me to renewed study into this conviction.

Deanna

[rejoice]

"Someone mentioned about a woman's glory needs to be covered. They are correct. Don't forget though that hair is a women's covering. It does not cover much when it is up. A woman's hair needs to be down but fully covered. In Christian love, Matthew Drayer"

Dear Matthew,
I don't understand this comment here. Did you mean that a woman should NOT have her hair up in a bun under her covering? But, have a covering over her hair hanging down? You say her hair needs to be down, but fully covered? That would be a long covering as well. I am just confused about what you were saying here. Could you explain please?

[Brother Ben]

Teaching on the covering is subject to the teaching of any one group. If I may put in my two cents worth, it is called a "head" covering, not a "hair" covering. I don't have a problem with a sister wearing her hair up, or wearing her hair down. I just think it needs to be done in a way that is neat, modest, and characteristic of a godly Christian lady. I'm afraid we get into trouble when we insist that the covering needs to be a certain length, color, type of cloth etc. I do, however, have a problem with colors and patterns that look Catholic, or worldly (bright yellow with smiley faces, etc.) We are trying to portray biblical modesty, not make a statement that puts our sisters into the catagory of "wierd" or "extravagant."

Bro. Ben

[rejoice]

I appreciate your comments Bro. Ben. Thank you!

[Brother Ben]

I wanted to be clear about something. After reading my above post, we DO have some convitions about the what and when of wearing a covering. To get an idea, you should read some of the articles above in the Head Covering Reflections area.

Bro. Ben

[George]

Let me say in fairness, I have met some fine brethren in the Charity movement. Like any movement, there are sincere wonderful Christians there, but they do and will make the doctrinal issue one of division. If they know someone is strong on the security of the believer, he will never get an opportunity to speak on that issue. You must squelch your Biblical convictions. It is better for us to pray that the Lord of the harvest would send forth workers to build conservative, head covering, Baptist assemblies.

Ah yes, it may or may not come as a surprise to some that the independent, fundamental Baptists are one of the few, if not the only denomination which preaches eternal security.

That is really sad. Just up the street from us is a Calvary Chapel. It is quite large.From most aspects they resemble the Baptist faith. The biggest problem is they have a whole lot of people running around over there who have no concept of whether or not they are saved. They are one of the many groups which teach it is possible to lose one's salvation.

That is a load of hogwash! Anyone who has even the slightest bit of Bible knowledge or the ability to read can plainly see that salvation is eternal. I do not understand why such denominations continue to preach heresy.

Yours in Christ,
George Groce

[mommyx9]

I've been lurking on these boards for a while now and just figured out how to post.....I feel now I have to comment. We are one of those "enamored" Bartists Bro. Ben was referring to. We are now in a Charity Church. As far as doctrine....yes, they believe you can lose your salvation and some go (almost) as far to imply we can live a sinless life.(or at least you are confessing constantly to someone about something!!)Personal Holiness is a big issue here, which is good, and yet it's overblown to the point it is almost a works salvation all over again. They also have no standing on the KJV........no foundation in the Word =no authority in the preaching,. They do not have all the "rules and church standards" that the Mennonite and Amish would have, but believe me, they're still
there. Because of the belief you can lose your salvation, they feel if a woman takes the veil off they will go to hell. I have been veiled for a number of years, but since moving here to this large community we have seen it all. I do know I would wear a veil for a church service, but I'm no longer sure that it HAS to be worn ALL the time. I wear mine with my hair up - but I tell you it has wreaked havoc on our hair....very unhealthy. My dh prefers we werarthe veil, but with our hair down. I think too, we want to wear the veil, but for it's symbolism, not to look like Amish. Needless to say - we want to go back to a good solid Baptist church.The preaching here is very weak, and there is NO TEACHING at ALL!!!! We were in a family centered church in NY but now after being out of NY it is a very costly and prohibitive state. Maybe we will be coming to TN!!!

[Brother Randy]

I would just like to say that one needs to be careful in putting Charity sister or fellowship churches in to one big cover of " Charity Churches" Having been a Charity person for a number of years , even though we don't have one in our area, I can say that there is a big difference from church to church. Sad to say some of the churches don't have the solid leadership that they should , nor the solid foundation they should . All of the Churches are looking for the same thing. { a real Christianity} Which the plain life style offers. but being they have come from different walks of life, it is a real struggle for many to all be on the same page.

This is also the struggle I see in a plain life among est the Baptist, not that it is not something to keep striving for, because I do believe it is what God would have us do. We have fallen so far from what our lives should be as a Christian I often wonder how do we get back to it.


My 2 cents Bro Randy

[benshelpmeet]

Dearest Gail,

Maybe we will be coming to TN!!!

You are more than welcome to move here. We'd be glad to have you as neighbors, friends, and brethren.

The so called Charity Church we were in sounds alot like what you just described. When we finally broke away from that group, we were discouraged because what we had thought would be a positive and long lasting move for our family turned out to be confusing at best.

We did meet alot of good brethren there and we did learn alot of helpful things in family life and practical living.

When we went there we were ( told ) it was a Charity Church and we ( Thought ) it was like Charity. We were sadly mistaken. We know Brother Denny personally and he is a good man and his family is toward the Lord and diligent in serving the Lord. Charity is doing a work for the Lord, but I know that the churches that call themselves a Charity church do not all line up with Charity and the goals they have and the doctrine they teach. My oldest son was recently up there for a week for youth bible school and he noticed that all the leaders used the KJV ''now'' ( at least while preaching), the only things he noticed that was troubling was one of the counselor couples said a few doctrinally wrong things about getting saved. ( what a shame) I wonder what brother Denny thought when he heard the testimony tape? ( If he even had time to listen) He's a good man and he loves the Lord and though we do not completely agree with everything he does we highly respect him as a brother and man of God.

We have found that we can no longer dwell among our precious Baptist brethren in a church situation because we disagree with their practice, though for the most part we agree with the baptist in doctrine, we cannot raise our family in a baptist church, ( at least up until now we have not found one that we can dwell in , where we can grow and flourish ) On the other hand we do not feel we can dwell in a Charity church, because of the doctrinal difference ( eternal life, the security of the truly born again believer. ) We agree with there practice for the most part, though in some areas we would take a stronger stand.

So for now we wait upon the Lord, we fellowship at home and with other plain chruches and sometimes baptist churches. Brother Ben often gets the opportunity to preach in these churches, so we stay busy until the Lord shows us what He is doing.

We have purchased a piece of land and started building our first house. We are very excited! We are praying for our house to be finished this year. Please pray for us to be able to finish our house and move in soon, we are eager to relocate.

Did you ever get my last email telling how Summertown is 40 min away from where we are moving? I was hoping you got my last email.

It sure is good to have you here!

Be encouraged sister, we were very discouraged when we left, and we even started wearing skirts and shirts with a vest and changed our coverings from a charity coverings to a scarf type and started wearing our hair down in a braid so we would not look like that ''so called'' Charity group on the hill. The Lord quickly delt with our heart about the look of a skirt verses a dress and it took a while, but the Lord showed us that we were to put our hair up and not worry about that group and what others would think. We were concerned about the barrettes breaking/ damaging the hair. We found that by putting on a head band to hold our hair back then putting on our covering then we use straight pins to pin on our covering in front of the headband... I hope that made sense. We make a bun and use a hair net for the back of our hair, it works fine. We wear our covering pretty much all the time except while bathing or sleeping, especially when in public and around non family members.

We call ourselves Pilgrim Baptist, We are plain in expression and baptist in doctrine.

Love your sister and friend, ~ Darlene ~

[mommyx9]

Sister Darlene~ do you have a "dress code" that would frown upon skirts? My dd's have recently gotten a couple, and I think they are full, femine and modest. They must, muST, MUST, have blouses long enough that the belly does not show if the arms are up. I'm tired of the "Keeping up with the Yoders" always sewing to keep 5 of us dressed modestly. While I prefer jumpers and blouses, and even cape dresses, there is a time for modest skirts and blouses too.

And yes, I did get your email about Summertown and your new house. I wish you the best in your building endeavor!

I think we are sliding into a "home church" although I never saw US doing that. We have visited a couple Baptist churches around, but after the church we were in in NY (www.opbbc.org) and being in the Charity circles....it would have to be a very good, biblically sound, CONSERVATIVE church for us to attend.......*sigh*.....such a journey......