|
Post by robinva on Mar 1, 2005 19:15:59 GMT -5
I probably know the answer to this one , but should I listen to the Godly home tapes from Charity given the difference between their doctrine and traditional Baptist doctrine. I would really like some good sermons on the home. Since the church we attend does not "teach" such things as women in long hair (I am open to wearing a covering, but still after prayer and searching do not feel God's leading in this area), women being keepers of their homes and not seeking outside employment, the blessings of quiverfull families, etc. I would love to have some tapes for edification in these areas. I just can't decide if I can listen to the Charity tapes and spit out the bones, so to speak. Any thoughts or admonitions? Robin
|
|
|
Post by 2bgracious on Mar 1, 2005 20:11:04 GMT -5
I strongly reccomend Vision Forum. They have plenty on courtship, husband as head of household, wife as keeper at home, respectful children that use their time wisely, homeschooling, creationist standpoint. They are very patriotic though...but you will not find that running through their family tapes, only on the tapes that deal directly with political issues. Here is a partial list of some of their tapes.
Raising Godly Children Family Man, Family Leader The Rold of Grandfathers in the Local Church The Role of Women in the Local Church Be Fruitful and Multiply How to Evaluate a Suitor The Wise Woman's Guide to Blessing Her Husband's Vision How to Develope Character in Your Children How to Keep Children from Becoming Bitter Seven Bible Truths Violated by Christian Dating Why Satan Wants Your Firstborn and What to Do About It What to Expect From a Twelve Year Old How to Pass On Convictions to Your Children How to Avoid the Destructiveness of a Wrong Self-Image What the Bible Says About Scorn and Mockery 6,000 Years of Earth History in One Hour The Blessed Marriage What's a Girl to Do (keeping young girls from idle hands) Women and Children First! Defending the Fatherless Discovering Life Purpose The Promise The Role of Children in the Meeting of the Church (I HIGHLY recommend this one!!!) How Modern Churches Are Harming Families Uniting Church and Family Christian Modesty
They are Reformed. I do not know where you are at, but I believe you will find these to be much sounder, not hyped by the outward but well grounded in scripture and historical context.
|
|
|
Post by hszoo on Mar 2, 2005 0:41:43 GMT -5
<snip> Since the church we attend does not "teach" such things as women in long hair (I am open to wearing a covering, but still after prayer and searching do not feel God's leading in this area), women being keepers of their homes and not seeking outside employment, the blessings of quiverfull families, etc.<snip> Robin Robin, I was where you are now for a couple of years. I tossed the issue of covering back and forth, asked a lot of people, and prayed over it. Then, God answered my prayer through another dear sister online who covers. She showed me the verses I needed to be assured that yes, covering is Scriptural and it does please God. She pointed out to me only what was in the Word and not her own opinion. That was what I needed. Guidance from the truth of God about covering regardless of any church teaching or even how I felt "led". (Sometimes I don't "feel led" to wash dishes, but that doesn't mean they aren't dirty and need it! ) I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I do know this - God's Word is truth whether I feel it or not.
|
|
|
Post by robinva on Mar 2, 2005 10:55:32 GMT -5
Anne,
I appreciate your encouragement regarding headcovering. I have diligently studied the passage in I Cor. 11, refering to concordances to trying to study the original Greek, and read MANY tracts, articles, and testimonies of sisters who cover, and as of yet I do not see a clear commandment in this except for long hair. I have used word subsitutions as in Sister Darlene's testimony. I'll try to find time to post this later as better explanation. I will continue to seek God's direction, but I will also need to wait on my husband's conviction also.
Robin
|
|
|
Post by hszoo on Mar 2, 2005 12:16:49 GMT -5
Anne, I appreciate your encouragement regarding headcovering. I have diligently studied the passage in I Cor. 11, refering to concordances to trying to study the original Greek, and read MANY tracts, articles, and testimonies of sisters who cover, and as of yet I do not see a clear commandment in this except for long hair. I have used word subsitutions as in Sister Darlene's testimony. I'll try to find time to post this later as better explanation. I will continue to seek God's direction, but I will also need to wait on my husband's conviction also. Robin I absolutely agree on waiting for your husband's conviction! I will ask you a few things, though, just to give you something to think about and present to your husband when the Spirit leads you. And believe me, I asked myself all these same things!! Does your husband wear a hat in church, when praying? Does he remove his hair to pray? What would be the purpose of a woman's covering, as addressed in 1 Cor. 11? Do you follow the last half of that chapter? Who was addressed in 1 Cor. 11? Are there other things you do that aren't commandments, but you know they please God nonetheless? Is there a certain logic to be found in 1 Cor. 11? Why do you suppose Paul would dedicate 16 verses to this issue? Are we permitted to forego certain things just because it's not taught, it's not common, or it's not convenient? And I had to really ask myself, why am I really resisting this? Am I afraid of what people will think? Is it my own pride getting in the way? Do I think it will be too much trouble to mess with? Do I think it will be a burden? What I learned about myself is that yes, I was afraid of what people would think and it was my own pride getting in the way. Not anymore. It opens doors to be a witness. I thought it might be a burden, but it's no more of a burden than anything else I do. I have always said, People do exactly what they want to do regardless of convenience. And that's true, because for so long I didn't wear a covering because I didn't want to. I laid it off to not being for our time, not being a commandment, etc. etc. The truth is, though, it is for our time and it is addressed in the Bible, which means it's worthy to be studied and obeyed. When women stopped wearing coverings, they also stepped out of authority in other areas. In clothing styles, in working outside the home, in leaving their children in the hands of strangers daily for daycare and education. The covering won't get you to heaven if you're not saved. And not wearing won't get you to hell. But like many things, it is a gift to us as women that reminds us of our place in Christ's body and it is a visible sign to others that we understand the order of authority in the kingdom - God, Jesus, man, woman. I believe you are really seeking on this issue and not that you are intentionally rebellious by any means. However, I really was rebellious about the covering and used every teaching opposed to it to back my rebellion and didn't want anything to do with the teachings that supported it. It wasn't until I submitted to correct teachings that I had to face the fact that I was in the wrong.
|
|
|
Post by Brother Ben on Mar 2, 2005 14:54:17 GMT -5
I think "in general" the messages in the godly home series tapes are good. My only problem is that the average person hears the tapes, doesn't know about all the doctrinal difference between Charity and historic Biblical Baptist belief, and oft go head over heals for the Charity movement. If they have stout conviction on the biggest hurddle, i.e., eternal security, they will eventually be graciously shown the exit door. I just wish they had a intro packet for interested listeners so they would know what they are getting themselves into when they become involved with Charity. Let me say in fairness, I have met some fine brethren in the Charity movement. Like any movement, there are sincere wonderful Christians there, but they do and will make the doctrinal issue one of division. If they know someone is strong on the security of the believer, he will never get an opportunity to speak on that issue. You must squelch your Biblical convictions. It is better for us to pray that the Lord of the harvest would send forth workers to build conservative, head covering, Baptist assemblies. I like what one brother told me, "It is better for us to stay friends with them from a distance, rather than enemies up close." I am not against them, I just think people need to be informed. The ignorant Baptist that is disappointed with the "disappointing" status of many of the fundamental churches can easily become enamered (sp?) with the modesty, big families, truly lovely singing, strong preaching, etc. However, we need not abandon the historic Baptist faith, we need to revive and retool for our next generation. Bro. Ben Why don't you brothers start preaching the messages we would like to hear, send me a copy, and lets have our own 'The Home: Built God's Way' series?? Just a thought. P.S. Regarding Vision Forum, I like alot of what I have seen in this very conservative Presbyterian movement, but I do issue a word of carefulness about some of the over emphasis on patriotism. We need to build strong disciples of Christ, not strong American patriots. One day our fellow Americans will round up believers becuase they are, in the words of Jerry Falwell, the lunatic fringe, as he spoke of fundamental Baptist believers. I am an ambassador for another country. I cannot be an American patriot. I am thankful for my country, but I will not die for her. I am crucified with Christ and counted as a sheep slain for His cause. Extra words for thought, Ben
|
|
|
Post by 2bgracious on Mar 2, 2005 16:16:33 GMT -5
That is why I mentioned their patriotic stand in my post. So that those that take issue with it would be forewarned. They possibly believe in a theocracy and they also hold the view that we are to do our best to change the world around us, not a wholly fallible concept...we are trying to change laws and ppl around us by being examples and in some cases working in the spheres that could accomplish such.
However, I also noted that they do NOT push it in their CD's on the home and family.
I also wish Charity had been more upfront on their beliefs. they use their appearance and the Godly Home Series to suck in conservative homeschoolers. I nearly did. Unfortunately we have family that did.
|
|
|
Post by robinva on Mar 3, 2005 17:32:25 GMT -5
1.Does your husband wear a hat in church, when praying? 2.Does he remove his hair to pray? 3.What would be the purpose of a woman's covering, as addressed in 1 Cor. 11? 4.Do you follow the last half of that chapter? 5.Who was addressed in 1 Cor. 11? 6.Are there other things you do that aren't commandments, but you know they please God nonetheless? 7.Is there a certain logic to be found in 1 Cor. 11? 8.Why do you suppose Paul would dedicate 16 verses to this issue? 9.Are we permitted to forego certain things just because it's not taught, it's not common, or it's not convenient? I hope I can answer some of your questions, and maybe ask a few of my own. #1 Of course dh does not wear a hat in church or while praying aloud. Although I'm sure that while working on some project and wearing his usual baseball cap there are many silent prayers. But, this may be more cultural behavior and not a bible issue. If he were to have long hair (as in "locks of hair" as explain in Strong's Concordance) that would be a biblical issue. #2 No, but there is no admonition in this passage about taking off an item. I'm pretty sure that customarily Greek men did not wear 'hats'. There is also a note in my Bible that it was the habit of Corinthian prositutes to shave or cut their hair very short in order to wear wigs to attract men. #3 It seems the issue of headcovering would be to show proper authority and position of men and women. #4 I think so, but to what verses are you specifically refering. #5 Christians. #6 I am sure if someone were to name a few, I would agree. In my thinking most things we choose to do or not to do would fall under living holy lives. #7 Not sure what you're asking here. #8 Exactly! The same question I've asked my fellow Baptist !!! I think there is something here that is relevant for all times. The scriptures inspired by an eternal God would always be applicable. No matter when or where. #9 Absolutely not. This is why I continue to seek understanding in this area. This is also why I REALLY DO appreciate your questions. I have a few too, if you don't mind. If you would like to email me privately to discuss this, I don't mind at all. Why would the word "head" be used in the scripture and not the word "hair". I Cor. 11:5 ...woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head ( hair) uncovered. If you go back through and subsitute hair for head (except where head means authority) it be be clear--until you got to I Cor. 11:16 Why in I Cor. 11:16 is a woman's hair called her covering which is Greek means veil or mantle? Please don't take offense at my questions. I only wish I could have a firm conviction on this subject. I can understand both sides of the issue and can only wait on God.
|
|
|
Post by hszoo on Mar 3, 2005 20:50:19 GMT -5
I hope I can answer some of your questions, and maybe ask a few of my own. #1 Of course dh does not wear a hat in church or while praying aloud. Although I'm sure that while working on some project and wearing his usual baseball cap there are many silent prayers. But, this may be more cultural behavior and not a bible issue. If he were to have long hair (as in "locks of hair" as explain in Strong's Concordance) that would be a biblical issue. #2 No, but there is no admonition in this passage about taking off an item. I'm pretty sure that customarily Greek men did not wear 'hats'. There is also a note in my Bible that it was the habit of Corinthian prositutes to shave or cut their hair very short in order to wear wigs to attract men. #3 It seems the issue of headcovering would be to show proper authority and position of men and women. #4 I think so, but to what verses are you specifically refering. #5 Christians. #6 I am sure if someone were to name a few, I would agree. In my thinking most things we choose to do or not to do would fall under living holy lives. #7 Not sure what you're asking here. #8 Exactly! The same question I've asked my fellow Baptist !!! I think there is something here that is relevant for all times. The scriptures inspired by an eternal God would always be applicable. No matter when or where. #9 Absolutely not. This is why I continue to seek understanding in this area. This is also why I REALLY DO appreciate your questions. I have a few too, if you don't mind. If you would like to email me privately to discuss this, I don't mind at all. Why would the word "head" be used in the scripture and not the word "hair". I Cor. 11:5 ...woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head ( hair) uncovered. If you go back through and subsitute hair for head (except where head means authority) it be be clear--until you got to I Cor. 11:16 Why in I Cor. 11:16 is a woman's hair called her covering which is Greek means veil or mantle? Please don't take offense at my questions. I only wish I could have a firm conviction on this subject. I can understand both sides of the issue and can only wait on God. I take no offense at all! You have asked everything I asked!! LOL I'm not going private message with this, though, because there could be a sister reading who is also wondering about such things. #2 While it may not have been customary for Greek men to wear hats, Jewish men did and still do wear them. They would need to remove their headcovering when going before the throne in prayer. #4 The verses in the last half of the passage cover the taking of the Lord's supper - proper preparation, etc. #5 Yes, Christians. In fact, all Christians and not just those in Corinth. 1 Cor 1:2 2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: KJV #7 Ok, here's the logic that I find in the passage. First, the order, which we already know - God, Jesus, man, woman. Paul goes on to expound how each fulfills their role in this order, which was established by God Himself. He reminds them of the ordinances that he taught them already. Then he explains in more detail this particular one. He draws conclusions based in kingdom issues and in cultural issues. Now, take a look at the following. 1 Cor 11:6 6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. KJV If hair were the only covering, this verse would make no sense at all. " For if the woman be not covered (with hair on her head), let her also be shorn." How could her hair be shorn or shaved if it was already gone? But, if you say "For if the woman be not covered (with a veil), let her also be shorn", then the sense of it is seen. Now, in v. 15 it addresses the long hair which should be like a mantle or covering. The word used? NT:4018 peribolaion (per-ib-ol'-ah-yon); neuter of a presumed derivative of NT:4016; something thrown around one, i.e. a mantle, veil: Yet another word is used to show a veil that is not hair which is long enough to cover part of the body, but is actually a veil used to cover even the hair in v. 6. NT:2619 katakalupto (kat-ak-al-oop'-to); from NT:2596 and NT:2572; to cover wholly, i.e. veil: Verse 13 gives us the negative - uncovered or unveiled, but not un-haired. akatakaluptos (ak-at-ak-al'-oop-tos); from NT:1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of a compound of NT:2596 and NT:2572; unveiled: Now, v. 15 also calls a woman's hair her glory. While that's a wonderful compliment, the thing is, it's God's glory that's important. So, if my hair is my glory I should cover it so as not to distract from the true focus of my worship and prayers. 1 Cor 11:7 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. KJV 1 Cor 11:15 15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: KJV A man uncovers his head because he is the image and glory of God. But a woman is the glory of man, not God, and the hair is her own personal glory. Therefore, it ought to be covered. Now, having said all that (whew!) do continue to pray over this matter. I struggled for 2 years about it before I came to understand I was pulling against God. God bless you, sister!
|
|
|
Post by glenda on Mar 8, 2005 13:43:30 GMT -5
Ok maybe I am out of it here but I have never heard of the Charity Movement. Can someone please tell me more about it. Is it something like the menninote and amish or is it something different. Glenda
|
|
|
Post by hszoo on Mar 8, 2005 14:00:38 GMT -5
Ok maybe I am out of it here but I have never heard of the Charity Movement. Can someone please tell me more about it. Is it something like the menninote and amish or is it something different. Glenda Here's their website www.charityministries.org/I actually have learned a lot from their tape ministry and free sermon downloads. However, you do have to be discerning about some of the doctrine.
|
|
|
Post by glenda on Mar 8, 2005 18:46:33 GMT -5
Can you tell me what is the doctrine difference between them and the baptist? I am just not sure. There web site does not really talk about there stand. I am just wondering.
|
|
|
Post by hszoo on Mar 8, 2005 20:05:01 GMT -5
Can you tell me what is the doctrine difference between them and the baptist? I am just not sure. There web site does not really talk about there stand. I am just wondering. I'm thinking they believe you can be lost again. Bro. Ben can probably tell you more. I have tapes and sermons from them and I remember that point coming through in some of them. I'm sure there are others. Of course, most Baptist churches don't teach the covering, women in modest apparel, etc.
|
|
|
Post by blessedbygod on Jun 30, 2005 22:30:44 GMT -5
I was reading this post that was posted back in March of this year... under the topics of: Biblical Topics-Fundamental Issues (subtopic) Doctrine differences & Charity Godly Home tapes I noticed a lot of the talk was on the Charity Godly Home tape series and the Vision Forum tape series. I saw were Brother Ben had posted the below: Why don't you brothers start preaching the messages we would like to hear, send me a copy, and lets have our own 'The Home: Built God's Way' series?? Just a thought. Bro. Ben I just wanted to add to this...... I would also like a series about that. I too think we need some more tapes teaching about all that was talked about on the post. These like: Raising Godly Children Father being a Family Leader Allowing God to control the womb Visions Courtship vs. Dating Passing your convictions to you children Women and Children First Having Family Worship together as a Family Modern Youth Groups Modesty Homeschooling etc..... I think that the churches have gotten away from preaching and teaching this and calling the people of the church to follow. Some many of us need this teaching. Love In Christ, Kim
|
|
MrsDeweySmith
Full Member
PRAYER governs conduct and conduct makes character. Conduct is what we do;Character is what we are.
Posts: 244
|
Post by MrsDeweySmith on Jul 1, 2005 8:01:03 GMT -5
I totally agree with that!!! No one wants to preach the "hard to hear" -- goodness, it might limit the number of warm bodies in the pews on Sundays. We have some very dear friends who have been through a lot in their church life, and one comment she makes that sets right with me is that we get beat up all week long, who wants to go to church and get beat up there as well. There are definitely some convicting issues that folks don't want to hear (the old adage, ignorance is bliss...) but you can't stay a baby Christian forever...I know, I tried You become a product of your environment, and most church environments want to keep it low-key and fluffy. Milk is passed out of the pulpit and the meat is kept aside. Honestly, this feel-good religion being taught in church is driving us straight into the Pit. We just walk along, singing and amen-ing along with the flow. We NEED to be "beat up" as she put it so we can grow from our baby's milk and start eating the real food, kwim? That said, I do enjoy my Godly Home Series, and I did purchase a set for each daughter a number of years ago. Will I keep them for their hope chests now that I've progressed a few steps along the Path? I don't know. There are some very good teachings on them, but you have to have a discerning ear and guard your heart...as with anything. Those tapes came to me at a time when I truly needed them. I longed for something and didn't know what it was I needed. I was glossing over the same sections in Scripture, but that was the problem...I glossed them over. They weren't taught as being anything concrete for my life as a Christian, so I took little notice of them. What wasted years. So -- when our Preacher Brothers here start compiling Godly teachings for families on these and so many other key issues, let me know and we'll upgrade to the better stuff! In His name, Deanna
|
|