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Post by Donna on Aug 7, 2006 13:22:48 GMT -5
Brother Ben,
I think I am beginning to understand. It is really all about faith in God's promises and not looking at the present but always remembering our eternal home.
I look forward to your additional comments
Donna
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Post by Brother Randy on Aug 7, 2006 22:57:44 GMT -5
I would like to say a hearty Amen to what Bro Ben has said on this subject.
I grew up in an IBF church so I know full well the God and county attitude. I don't believe I ever fully embraced the teaching and do believe God has lead me to a higher standard of non-resistant. Which has also lead me to the Mennonite or plain churches not that I agree 100% of all that they do and teach. But it is much closer to the Bible then I had found before.
I thing we need to remember that in the old testament Israel was a nation with rulers and such, where today new testament believers are only sojourners in this land.
Non-resistant is so much more then being against war, it affects our every day life. It is what shows the world that there is really something different about us. I have surrendered all my rights to Jesus Christ's keeping. When some one does me wrong or cheats me on a business deal I don't go to court to get that which I think might be due me. I place it in Gods hands to deal with it. We are to suffer the wrong.
Also I not sure I really believe in self defence, I would not take up arms to protect myself or my family I would go to God in prayer right then and there. There are a great number of stories where the people where spared because they did not fight back but prayed. I remember hearing a story of a family a long time back that never locked their doors, because they trusted in God This was a time during Indian uprisings. They knew this about the family and when they attack the village they when to check their doors and indeed found them unlocked and there by spared their lives, We never lock our doors neither even when we are gone on a trip. Like Bro Ben said some might think this foolish, but not I . As the word tells us , we are not to fear what man can or will do to us, ( my wording)
When we go to war as a Christian do they ever stop and think that just maybe the one they are fighting against and may kill is another believer? If one thinks this has not happen is a foolish thought. I believe it has happen more times then not.
When we die to self our life is no longer ours but Gods to do as he sees fit. We never know how God might use us even in death.
For you sisters that have these questions I would encourage you to read Foxes Book of Martyrs or even more so Martyrs Mirror to see how God worked though countless believers that took not thought of their lives , placed their all in God's hands.
I do praise God for a county that we can worship ( for the time being ,) in peace, but my home is in heaven. We can always think of what if's this or that or we can choose to trust in God For our well being.
Guess enough said , this is my testimony of what I beleive.
Bro Randy
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Post by Brother Ben on Aug 8, 2006 7:31:13 GMT -5
Here is the story of one who gave up his life here, but received the eternal prize. DIRK WILLEMS, A. D. 1569 In the year 1569 a pious, faithful brother and follower of Jesus Christ, named Dirk Willems, was apprehended at Asperen, in Holland, and had to endure severe tyranny from the papists. But as he had founded his faith not upon the drifting sand of human commandments, but upon the firm foundation stone, Christ Jesus, he, notwithstanding all evil winds of human doctrine, and heavy showers of tyrannical and severe persecution, remained immovable and steadfast unto the end; wherefore, when the chief Shepherd shall appear in the clouds of heaven and gather together His elect from all the ends of the earth, he shall also through grace hear the words, "Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things; enter thou into the joy of thy Lord." I Pet. 5:4; Matt. 24:31; 25:23. * Perhaps St. Bartholomew's day.-Trans. Concerning his apprehension, it is stated by trustworthy persons, that when he fled he was hotly pursued by a thief-catcher, and as there had been some frost, said Dirk Willems ran before over the ice, getting across with considerable peril. The thief-catcher following him broke through, when Dirk Willems, perceiving that the former was in danger of his life, quickly returned and aided him in getting out, and thus saved his life. The thiefcatcher wanted to let him go, but the burgomaster, very sternly called to him to consider his oath, and thus he was again seized by the thief-catcher, and, at said place, after severe imprisonment and great trials proceeding from the deceitful papists, put to death at a lingering fire by these bloodthirsty, ravening wolves, enduring it with great steadfastness, and confirming the genuine faith of the truth with his death and blood, as an instructive example to all pious Christians of this time, and to the everlasting disgrace of the tyrannous papists. NOTE.-In this connection, it is related as true from the trustworthy memoirs of those who were present at the death of this pious witness of Jesus Christ, that the place where this offering occurred was without Asperen, on the side of Leerdam, and that, a strong east wind blowing that day, the Page 742 kindled fire was much driven away from the upper part of his body, as he stood at the stake; in consequence of which this good man suffered a lingering death, insomuch that in the town of Leerdam, towards which the wind was blowing, he was heard to exclaim over seventy times, "O my Lord; my God," etc., for which cause the judge or bailiff, who was present on horseback, filled with sorrow and regret at the man's sufferings, wheeled about his horse, turning his back toward the place of execution, and said to the executioner, "Dispatch the man with a quick death." But how or in what manner the executioner then dealt with this pious witness of Jesus, I have not been able to learn, except only, that his life was consumed by the fire, and that he passed through the conflict with great steadfastness, having commended his soul into the hands of God. As we have come into possession~of the sentence which these rulers of darkness passed upon this friend of God, we have deemed it well, to add it here for the benefit of the readers, in order that reading the same, they may be able to perceive the truth of this matter. COPY.-Whereas, Dirk Willems, born at Asperen, at present a prisoner, has,. without torture and iron bonds (or otherwise) before the bailiff and us judges, confessed, that at,the age of fifteen, eighteen or twenty years, he was rebaptized in Rotterdam, at the house of one Pieter Willems, and that he, further, in Asperen, at his house, at divers hours, harbored and admitted secret conventicles and prohibited doctrines, and that he also has permitted several persons to be rebaptized in his aforesaid house; all of which is contrary to our holy Christian faith, and to the decrees of his royal majesty, and ought not to be tolerated, but severely punished, for an example to others; therefore, we the aforesaid judges, having, with mature deliberation of council, examined and considered all that was to be considered in this matter, have condemned and do condemn by these presents in the name; and in the behalf, of his royal majesty, as Count of Holland, the aforesaid Dirk Willems, prisoner, persisting obstinately in his opinion, that he shall be executed with fire, until death ensues; and declare all his property confiscated, for the benefit of his royal majesty. So done this 16th of May, in presence of the judges, -Cornelis Goverts, Jan van Stege Jans, Adriaen Gerritts, Adriaen Jans, Lucas Rutgers, Jan Jans, and Jan Roefelofs, A. D., 1569. Extracted from the records of the town of Asperen, and after collation this copy was found to agree [with the original], the 15th of October 1606. Acknowledged by me, the town clerk of A speren. T' SHEERENBERGH.
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Post by Brother Ben on Aug 10, 2006 7:56:08 GMT -5
Sometimes God, in His sovereignty, decides to spare a life, and sometimes not, this is the case of biblical history.
Hbr 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and [of] Barak, and [of] Samson, and [of] Jephthae; [of] David also, and Samuel, and [of] the prophets:
Hbr 11:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
Hbr 11:34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
Hbr 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
Hbr 11:36 And others had trial of [cruel] mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
Hbr 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
Hbr 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and [in] mountains, and [in] dens and caves of the earth.
Hbr 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Hbr 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
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Post by Brother Ben on Aug 16, 2006 7:43:50 GMT -5
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Post by SisterNancy on Dec 19, 2007 23:38:46 GMT -5
OK, I apologize for I know this post is old. but, now I am confused... someone said {It is our gov. job to do the civil duties and the Christians duty to fight the spiritual warfare on our knees.} I agree with this however, isn't the Government made up of people we vote for and shouldn't we be putting Christians with Godly Character in office to Lead us and for us to be under their authority. If I have to be under the governments authority I want them to be Christians. And I would rather have praying Christians protecting me both spiritually and physically as opposed to non-Christians. I guess I am trying to say doesn't God use Christians to do this? Just like He provides for us by sending other Christians who are obedient to bless us at times? God is providing for us thru the use of men. Am I making sense?
Also, I don't believe when God has given the government authority to wage war to protect our nation that the military is committing murder (which is the sin) they individually are not pre meditating to go and kill innocent people as a murderer does. They are protecting against the aggressor. They are defending our and others nations.
I will admit here that I do respect the Mennonite view of non-resistance when people commit evil against them. I think it is much harder to practice that then to fight back. I in no way think it is easy to not fight back. I understand letting God protect you in a personal way... But I do think God has given the government authority over us...And Christians should be a part of that Government. both politically and militarily (Sp?).
I love the Mennonite people and the only thing keeping us from joining them is my husband can not at this time accept the pacifist doctrine.
I am half and half I guess you would say. unsure about it all.
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kscarle
Member
Philippians 4:4, Romans 12:1, John 14:15
Posts: 97
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Post by kscarle on Dec 20, 2007 9:21:43 GMT -5
I am not opposed to war for the right reasons. Protection is a reason. I do agree that the government is for this purpose. I would like to think of our military as soldiers for a Christian nation, but I know that many are not even Christians. To change the subject a bit; consider this, there are some soldiers that are truly born again and we should pray that they may be used as missionaries to spread the gospel in lands that they can go and that are still closed to missionaries. Just a thought.
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kscarle
Member
Philippians 4:4, Romans 12:1, John 14:15
Posts: 97
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Post by kscarle on Dec 20, 2007 14:10:45 GMT -5
I noticed something about your post that I didn't get quite at first. You mention eds asking your pastor about a biblical issue. This is wrong and out of order. You should have gone to your husband, then if nothing, asked your husband to go to your pastor, then if that still did not work you should have asked your husband permission to go the pastor.
We may not agree with our husbands on everything, but we are to be obedient in everything...I try to remember to go to my husband first. I agree with the Mennonites on many subjects pertaining to standards, but your husband is in authority...also remember that there are some doctrinal differences other than the issue of resistance/nonresistance. Scripture can be given by each person on why they believe like they do, but both agree with the husband being the head. Please do not take me for being harsh, someone has said similar words to me because they notice I was trying to change my husband to what I wanted instead of following like God wanted. It was humbling experience for me.
Something a sister older in the faith told me shortly after I was saved has stuck with me and I'll share it with you, perchance it may help...If there is a topic your struggling with; get a fresh notebook, start from Genesis and read through till the end of Revelation (Pray before and after), each time the Bible deals with the subject you write out the verse and maybe put some notes with it.
Sister Kristie
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Post by Brother Ben on Dec 20, 2007 16:49:10 GMT -5
Sister Nancy,
You said:
The key phrae here is ,"...I don't believe..." We have been trained since we were children to revere the thoughts and policies of those who established our nation. Indeed, many of their thoughts are noble, but are they biblical? There are several posts on this topic and I recommend reading them. I am not Mennonite, so my perspective is one I derived studying out what the Bible actually says on the topic.
Under the New Covenant (the New Testament,) we are no longer physically defending a nation, we are spiritually defending a Kingdom. Nowhere in the N.T. are we (believers) given permission to kill anyone.
These are commands given under the New Covenant.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou (that's us believers,) shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
There is no love greater than the love of one's soul. When one, thinking themselves to be justified by their government, kills another, they send their eternal soul to hell, a judgment they would not do to themselves, heeding, "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."
If a Christian, for the government, and with their blessing, kills and thus sends their neighbor to hell, they should be willing to commit their soul to the same hell the enemy received.
The founding fathers, General Petrea (sp?), George Bush, or Donald Rumsfeld, will not stand up for us on Judgment Day...we will stand before God. Killing is killing, wheter it is premediatated or not. The government has God's authority to take life and wage war, but it does not have the authority to absolve believers of guilt if they kill on thier behalf. The Bible does not teach so.
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Post by SisterNancy on Dec 20, 2007 17:03:37 GMT -5
{The government has God's authority to take life and wage war,}
this is where my confusion comes in. Who is the Government? Is it not people in this country? and if they have authority over us shouldn't they be Christians?
I am truly not arguing...I am truly questioning because I am confused over this whole issue.
I am going to seek my husband out on this too. Thank You! I guess it's time to do a thorough study on this subject.
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Post by Brother Ben on Dec 20, 2007 17:25:40 GMT -5
It would be nice if the government was all Christian (real Christian,) but they are not nor for all practical purposes could be, especially in a constitutional republic, which is what we have. A collection from all sectors of society.
The Bible says: Mat 22:21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
Do you see the differenciation between Earthly government and Heavenly? Earthly government cannot ever be completely Heavenly until Christ sits on the throne after His coming. Until them, we have Ceasar, a heathen who had great organizational and leadership ideas (though a pagan.)
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Post by wife on Dec 20, 2007 18:25:07 GMT -5
The Bible is clear....Rom 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
In v 18, I used to think that i had to bend over backwards to make sure I was at peace with others. I'm not saying that every effort should not be made, but it clearly says "If it be possible" which indicated sometimes it's *not* possible. Also, we have fed our enemies (those who hate and would kill us) and it *has* heaped coals of fire upon their heads- they hate us even more now because those coals are burning them even now. Their hatred of us is because of the gospel and also because we have for decades, assisted them financially and sent aid of all sorts to their countries. Heaping coals of fire doesn't mean it will make them less angry and hateful towards- it means will make them more angry and hateful towards the one who cares for them although they be their enemy.
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Post by anabean on Dec 26, 2007 10:34:03 GMT -5
Here is a note....
The Catholic Church has "lovingly" killed more Christians than any other instituion on the face of the earth. "Christians" killing Christians. The Bible is very clear on the subject....our minds have just been blinded to the catholic doctrine of "Just War". You CANNOT kill your enemies and love them at the same time. "Christianity" was never "American" for 1,700 years.
John 18:36....if you fight you are not His servant.
Also, I noticed that the pastor earlier that tried to explain "his" views were almost scriptureless. What does he jusitfy his views on? The American way or the Bible way? We are speaking of two kingdoms here. The kingdom of america (which will pass away), and the Kingdom of God (which is eternal)...to whom is your allegiance to? We are to pray for our troops, we are to love them, and pray for our countries. But a disciples life is not to be spent trying to be a hero for any nation on this earth...but for God. Dying for "america" is right in mans eyes....but in the NT, there is no command to do so....but we do see commands to love enemies, not render evil for evil (which is what soldiers do), and we are to forsake all. Joining the military to kill makes you not a disciple....as you have not forsook all for the Kingdom of God, but you have forsaken all for the Kingdom of America. (Luke 14:25-33)
Brother Ben and his wife have put much scripture on this subject but for some reason it seems some still are putting up "their opinions" instead of scripture. If you believe you can kill with love, then you need some New Testament scripture to prove it instead of an opinion. Opinions do not stand with God and cost people their souls today. We are judged by the Word of God...not opinions. The OT is great as well...however today we DO NOT sacrifice animals, or build a "Christian Nation"...if that was the goal then Rome won a long time ago.
There are few that find the gate.....and less than I believe one tenth of "Christians" actually believe in non-resistance.
Just some thoughts....
Anabean
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Post by anabean on Dec 26, 2007 10:34:59 GMT -5
Need to correct this...
Here is a note....
The Catholic Church has "lovingly" killed more Christians than any other instituion on the face of the earth. "Christians" killing Christians. The Bible is very clear on the subject....our minds have just been blinded BY the catholic doctrine of "Just War".
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