Help understanding different views on violence/war

[Deleted]

I wrote my old pastor for some answers. For a while now I've been against violence. This all started when I read what Jesus and Paul had to say about loving your enemies, etc., in Matthew and Romans (and more). It's been hard for me to attend any I.F.Baptist church because they all seem so blood thirsty. The preaching is good, but I just can't get over the thought that they think all this killing and stuff is alright. Anyway, I wrote the pastor - it's posted below. Please excuse me if I sound a little silly - I still consider myself a 'new' Christian. I had no one else to ask, so I thought he'd be a good place to start (my husband is Hindu, he knew I was going to do this and thought my letter was written well). Now I'd like help with his answers. He seems a little condescending, but that's alright - it could just be 'in my head' since this is a sensitive topic for me. I do not really know what to feel about his letter - any thoughts? I do know that I do not agree with most of it, but it's hard for me to put it into words that make sense. Here's the letter; his words are in brown:
(this is all he responded with the first time - I then asked him for more details)
Understand that God is a loving God, but in loving sometimes hard decisions must be made for the best of all those involved. For example...If someone has cancer it is a hard decision to have a lung removed or to have a mastectomy, etc, but if the cancer is not removed, the end results would be much worse. Some enemies are like that cancer and must be removed for the good of humankind (see the Old Testament where God sometimes ordered His people to completely destroy entire people groups because of their false religion).
[end of first response]
~~~~~~~~~~~~
[begin second response with my comments in between]
You mentioned the Old Testament and how God sometimes chose to wipe out a whole group of people. That’s my point too, but in a different way. It should be God choosing to do that, not us. What gives us the biblical right to kill other human beings? They have souls just like we do. They are made in God’s image just like us. They are children of God too, even though they do not realize it YET. They may not be making the right choices, but that’s because they do not know God as their savior.

God has given the right to government (one of the three institutions created by God) to defend its citizens from threats - real or perceived. Just like your husband would have the right to protect his family from someone trying to invade your home or do harm to your or your children...even so, our government has been given not only the right, but also the responsibility to protect our citizens and our way of life.
How will they ever come to Him if we kill them before they have a chance?

"Ye do err, not knowing the scripture, nor the power of God". The people we are at war with have refused the gospel for centuries. The gospel of Jesus Christ was preached there and New Testament Baptist Churches were in that region for centuries. And, yes, it is our responsibility to again get the gospel to them...but it cannot be done under the suppression of Islam and its repressive agenda. They have NO tolerance for Christianity (Just open your eyes and look at the difference between freedom of religion here in the USA and what goes on in the Muslim countries - NO FREEDOM AT ALL). Perhaps this war is God's way of getting that wall of Islam down so that the gospel of Christ can be preached there again. So, what do we do about it?
1) Pray for the gospel to penetrate the wall of Islam nations
2) Support good missionaries going into those regions
3) Dedicate ourselves to get the gospel to everyone around us - that they might be saved
4) Dedicate ourselves to go to the mission fields of the world with the gospel and plant NT Baptist Churches for the purpose of continuing that agenda.

We have had part in the starting and the continuing of BAGHDAD BAPTIST CHURCH right in Iraq...the gospel is being preached there every day and souls are being saved.
You mentioned cancer – yes, many people can be viewed as a ‘cancer’ to society. When someone is sick with cancer, we do all we can to help them get better. When someone is sick with very evil ‘cancers’ we do all we can to eliminate them.

We only "eliminate" them when they are a THREAT to others. That is the reason diseased organs, limbs, etc. are removed...to protect the rest of the body from the malignancy of the disease. It is not that we dislike the body part, in fact, we love our body and its parts, but it is for the protection of the body. Even so, the removal of those who would destroy or threaten to destroy our society and our citizens is necessary for our continued life. If we do not eliminate them - they will do their best to eliminate US.
Shouldn’t we instead do all we can to help them get better (help them find God)? We should have a burden for lost souls.

(SEE ABOVE)

I was not always saved. In fact, I used to listen to devil music, hang out with devil worshipers (even though I did not believe in the Devil or God), and do all sorts of wicked things. God saved me from that. Just imagine if someone decided I was an evil cancer and killed me for the greater good. I was a cancer to society for a long long time.

Were you trying to kill other people? Where you responsible for the death of thousands? Were you really a THREAT to society? Or were you simply doing things your way (even though it was wrong) and allowing others to believe and do what they wanted? There is a HUGE difference in the point you are trying to make and the attitude, agenda and actions of those of the Islamic faith. Surely you can see the difference can't you?
I am very thankful I had the opportunity to live and to find God’s forgiveness for all my sins.

You can thank the US Military and our American way of life for that opportunity. You can thank faithful, caring Christians and gospel preaching churches, pastors and individuals for that opportunity. Those behind the immoral, spiritually diseased wall of Islam do not have that opportunity. You talk like you want them to have the same opportunity, yet you do not realize the price that has been paid for you and I to have the opportunities we have...Our USA did not just "happen", there has been a tremendous price paid by multiplied thousands in order to defend our opportunities.
So, basically, what gives US the right to decide which people are too cancerous to society to be saved? Now, I can see if God chose to take them by disease, natural disaster, or some other form. But when we take them because we think they are wrong, I think we are jumping over God’s head.

The problem is not that they are "too cancerous to society to be saved", the problem is as Jesus stated it, ... "Ye will not come that ye may have eternal life". Anyone can accept Christ as personal Saviour and be born again, but the Islamic countries not only disallow any witnessing of the gospel, but they also despise US and our freedoms (including witnessing, preaching, etc.) and therefore they seek to destroy America - which they call "THE GREAT SATAN". These people are not simply enemies of America, they are enemies of the Gospel of Jesus Christ - They deny Christ and seek to kill and destroy all those who choose to believe in Jesus Christ as Saviour. Do you not understand that these people have attacked us again, and again, and again, and again...? This is not a response to just 9-11! This has been a continuous attack for decades and it has been escalating until we have finally said "Enough!" They have encroached upon our country and our freedoms and we are saying, "That's enough! We will stop you now! You are a cancer that is threatening the free societies of the world and you must be removed."

Thank you once again for your (first) response, but in my opinion it really lacked biblical backing. The Old Testament says eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, hand for a hand, etc. in Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy (and maybe in more places?). However Jesus did away with that line of thinking in the New Testament (Matthew 5) [here I inserted the text from Matt. 5:38 on] To me it’s plain as day that Jesus did away with the ‘eye for an eye’ attitude. In fact, it seems to me that Jesus is telling us to go out of our way to be kind to our enemies and those who do not like us. So why do so many others ignore this or see it differently? I just don’t understand – am I missing something? Is there something in the rest of the New Testament were Jesus says “well, all right, you can kill, but only if you feel the person or persons are a cancer and only if you feel it will help the greater of society”.
As I said before, I am just trying to understand all of this. I’m not criticizing you for your beliefs; rather I’m just trying to understand how killing another human is biblically justified.

It is simply self-defense, which is taught throughout both the Old and New Testament. I am sure you understand that. I think you simply do not perceive the threat that AlQeada and all that group of people are to the entire world in general and Christians in particular. The greatest thing we can do for an individual is get the Gospel to them - Without a clear Gospel presentation people have NO HOPE of heaven, they are bound for hell. The terrorists are firmly opposed to the Gospel of Christ in any form. They are being used by Satan to hinder the Gospel and take millions to hell. The "cancer" must be removed or multiplied millions more will not have a chance to hear the Gospel and be saved. This is more than a physical, military war..."For we battle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against spiritual wickedness in high places..." If we (USA) do not take a stand and eliminate those forces of evil darkness, then how will the Light of the Gospel shine in to the oppressed people of those nations? We did not ask for this war...it is a response to Satanic oppression in the middle east which has spread to attack our society and our spiritual freedoms we have in Christ here in the west.

[prv31wife]

Hi Sister Joanne,
I'm basically shocked by what this pastor said to you. Actually I'm horrified
I don't know if this is the right church for you. I think alot of what this man says is his own opinion. I won't say more. I'm just too shocked.

[Deleted]

Dear Sister - I'm shocked too!! Thankfully, this is NOT the church we are going to right now ... this is the reason we left that church. I just wrote to him because I wanted to know how he really felt about it all. I figured it was not along my lines of thinking, but wanted to know for sure. Now I'm at a loss as to what to say back to this man. I've already emailed him a 'thank you' for resonding so in depth. I told him I'd pray about what he said and get back to him when I'm ready.
The children and I have been going to a conservative Mennonite church once a month - it's an hour away. We love it a lot, but still there are a few things that bother me just a little. We are looking around for a church that suits us ... but finding it a little hard. We are actually in the military - a choice that my husband now feels was a mistake. However he is 'sticking out' his final 2 years and then he'll be done. I do everything I can to make his job easier. Since we are in the military, of course we live in a heavy military setting - we cannot escape from it! All the churches around us are filled with military people. I think this is the reason a lot of the pastors are so 'pro war' I don't know. We are doing the best we can though.

[learningtosubmit]

Thank you so much for your timely post. This is another issue that the Lord has been convicting me on, especially these past few weeks. I am confused, too. I question how someone can know that they are killing with God's authority.

If anyone has some resources on this subject, I would be very interested and appreciative.
Sis. Shanna

By resources, I mean, specific Bible verses, or Biblical teaching from a trusted pastor. Thanks!

[benshelpmeet]

Dear sisters,

I read the letter and I heard the heart of this pastor. He loves lost souls. I agree with most of what he said.

I would like to say there are two divisions here that of a christian ( Spiritual ) and that of the Government (Physical )

The christian is not to go to physical war. Our warfare is that of prayer.

The government is an authority set up, and ordained by God, they on the other hand do go to physical war for the protection and preservation of our country and for our freedom.

A christian is supposed to do good to their enemies, we are to pray for them, witness to them care for their soul.

The government on the other hand is ordained by God and I believe the Lord orders the course of this world.

We as christians are not to worry about the physical but the spiritual. Alot of people try to balance the two, thats where confusion comes in.

I think this pastor sounds like a good man concerned about souls, I think he has never been taught and challenged to think any different. Probably sister Joanne is the first to challenge his thinking on this issue. He believes like his Ind. Fund. Baptist peers (other pastors and the group or groups he runs with) This is just the way they think.

I hope this made since and was helpful!

Have a great day! ~ sister Darlene ~

P.S. We do not believe a christian should be involved in the military. We take the non resistant stand. We as christians are to go to spiritual warfare ( prayer) for our country and against evil.

[Deleted]

Thank you Brother - yes, he is a good man and I know his heart is in the right spot. He emailed me back and said he appreciated how open and honest I was being. He preaches good too - I learned a lot when I went there. He just brings WAY TOO MUCH of the military and politics into the service. At first it was easy for me to overlook. But as time went on, it just got a little old. Also, I did not want my children thinking that was ok (war, death penalty, politics, etc all being talked about during the service - a lot). It's so hard to find a church around here that does not preach politics and military on the pulpit. Like I said, this is a military town and my husband is in fact in the military (although not Christian). He has often wondered himself how Christians can be in the military. Only because he enjoys listening to the things I am learning from the Bible. I have been talking to him about this whole issue a lot - asking for his advice and more. He likes it that I feel free to talk to him even though he is not Christian - I'm praying this will some how plant a seed

I do still wonder, like someone else just mentioned, how we draw the line when justifying killing for war purposes. If we kill in war and should not have, will God judge us for that? Or will he judge our leaders for telling us to kill? Did that make sense? I hope so.

I am going to keep looking for a church that better suits us. We might have found one that will do, but I don't know yet. In the mean time, I do devotions with the children every night and we all read our Bibles on our own in the mornings. I also incorporate as much 'Bible stuff' as I can when homeschooling.

Anyway - thank you all for responding, it has helped me to get if off my chest and got my brain to expand in different directions.

[benshelpmeet]

The Bible is clear....

Rom 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Mat 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Mat 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Mat 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

Mat 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Mat 5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Mat 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:

Mat 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

Mat 5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

Mat 5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

Mat 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Mat 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.

Mat 5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

Mat 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
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Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil

1Th 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

1Pe 3:9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

1Pe 3:17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.




Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.


I'm sure there are more verses...I'll post them as I come across them.


A christians warfare is prayer ( spiritual)

Not physical warfare.

But if you cannot pray down heaven you might as well fight! If you trust in the flesh then gird yourself up for war against the enemy.....

But if you walk with God and seek his face and peace with God, then learn how to get a hold of God in prayer. Pray for our country our Nation...Pray for our service men who do choose to fight christian or non christian, pray for our enemies, pray for the Lords soon return, ''Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem'', Pray for protection, wisdom, provision, discernment, pray for our president and leaders, even the world leaders, Pray...Pray...Pray... Lord teach us to pray!

God is good

God is able to help in our time of need.

Our government is ordained of God and it is there place to fight for our freedoms and we as christians are to back them in prayer.

Do you pray!

Do you trust in your flesh when troubles arise...what can I do to help?

Or do you go to the God of heaven in prayer, believing! He can help in our time of need...no matter how great our need, He can meet it.

Be a christian who is mighty in prayer. I'm not there but I desire to be that close to the Lord. I desire to be a peace maker and to bless those who curse me. God help my heart to follow your will.

[Brother Ben]

Amen, thank you for sharing those scipture, Darlene. As we pursue a plain and simple life, we see in the pattern of the Early Church a more peaceable people. This too is my prayer and desire.

Bro. Ben

[ssab12003]

I realize this thread is an old one but it is so good. I just went to Arthur and Arcola Il (Amish and Mennonite community) with a Southern Baptist friend and she was really stumped over the non resistance stand. I on the other hand being brought up S. Baptist and now IFB, always felt it was so wrong to think that killing in war was right as a Christian. I think Darlene said it so well. It is our gov. job to do the civil duties and the Christians duty to fight the spiritual warfare on our knees. thank you for such great insight. I believe I may share this with my friend if the Lord prompts me. Alane

[hollydawnr]

I hate to do this, but I think I have no choice but to disagree here... I think of all the brave men and women in our military who are fighting because they ARE Christians. I've spent some time in a Mennonite church, so I'm familiar with the doctrines of non-violence and non-resistance, but I can't say I agree with them.

I agree that we should not recompense violence for violence, TO AN EXTENT. Let me see if I can explain this a bit better...

A sermon given in Philadelphia in 1747 states, "He that suffers his life to be taken from him by one that hath no authority for that purpose, when he might preserve it by defense, incurs the Guilt of self murder since God hath enjoined him to seek the continuance of his life, and Nature itself teaches every creature to defend itself." Basically, if you are at risk of losing your life and you do nothing to defend yourself (when you COULD defend yourself), you are committing the sin of suicide. That was the viewpoint of our founding fathers. Now that said, I would add that if you could NOT reasonably defend yourself (like those being held in prisons in China and in Muslim nations), then by all means you should accept the loss of your life with dignity. But if some teen-age thug comes up to me and tries to rape me or take me hostage with a knife, I don't have a moral problem with shooting him. If it is a life-or-death issue, I will defend my life. Furthermore, I will defend the lives of my children. To do otherwise would be to willingly accept death--in other words, it would be suicide.

I also want to add, aren't we responsible for helping defend those who cannot defend themselves? Maybe it's my "redneck" upbringing, but I was always taught that principle.

When I was a freshman in high school, a senior slammed me against a wall and held me there by my neck while he slapped me in the face. There were probably three or four boys out of the crowd that could've easily stepped forward to help me, but none did. Now while I will say that the senior certainly held primary responsibility, were the capable by-standers completely innocent? I don't think so. I was a 14-year-old girl and very petite--he was 18 and captain of the football team. I could not defend myself, and all my schoolmates simply stood around and did nothing. I do think that makes them just as culpable as oh noailant.

I think the real problem I have with the doctrine of non-violence is that doing NOTHING is still doing SOMETHING. If you stand there and do NOTHING while someone else is being victimized, you have made a decision. You have, at that point, the power to save this person from danger, and you have CHOSEN to do nothing. What decision do you think God would have you make: To give an assailant one well-placed punch in the nose (should that even be necessary--often it's not. Most of the time it CAN be resolved with words) and make it very likely that he will think twice before assaulting someone else, or simply turn your back and walk away, leaving that innocent victim to his/her fate? If you walk away, are you not just as guilty as the assailant?

With regards to fighting wars...

In WWII, we (Americans) got involved in the war for some very selfish reasons--we got involved because the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. But look at the lives that were saved BECAUSE we got involved. How many British lives were saved because we helped cut short the German Reich? How many American lives were spared because of the defeat of the Japanese? How many Jewish lives were saved because we shut down the Concentration Camps? Was it pretty and neat and non-violent? Of course not, war never is. But would it have been better to simply allow it to continue until entire continents were uninhabited? By doing nothing, we still would've been making a decision to do something, and our inaction would only have served to support a genocidal madman.

On to Iraqi Freedom... Did we get involved in this for the right reasons? I don't know, because I can't read the President's mind. But we still have to consider the effects of our involvement in an armed conflict. Think of the Kurds that were spared the torturous expirements Think of the Israelis and Americans that were saved from the results of his sponsored terrorists. Think of the dissidents in his country that were saved from certain death at the hands of his minions. Finally, think of the innocent women that were saved from abduction, rape, and murder at the hands of his evil offspring.

I really hate to do this, but I have to respectfully disagree. Perhaps it's because I HAVE been raped and I HAVE been assaulted. I know what it feels like. I know how much worse it feels to be raped and assaulted in the presence of others who simply stand aside and do nothing (been there, done that too). I wouldn't hesitate to defend myself, my children, or even a complete stranger against an assailant. To do otherwise would, in my opinion, be the worse sin.

You know, in a situation where you're confronted with violence, you have two choices. Both choices are going to cause you to have to hurt someone. Do you choose to hurt the innocent one by your inaction, or to hurt the evil one by intervening? Do you choose to hurt one evil dictator, or to hurt thousands of innocent women and children by doing nothing? Either way you go, you find yourself responsible for death or for harming other people. But if you take the path of non-violence, you will do far more harm.

[Donna]

I, too, am having a problem with these views.
Our country has been shaped by a history of men defending and fighting for what they believe. We were (and should still be) a Christian nation. God has blessed this country in the past. We have often defended the oppressed around the globe. In the case of the current "war", our soldiers are trying to prevent those responsible for the attack on our country from doing it again. I for one, would rather they fight over there than have the battles here, although some day soon we may be faced with a war on US soil.

I have always viewed the non-violence to mean that I wouldn't go out of my way to take revenge on some wrong done to me. (Turning the other cheek, rather than striking back) I don't think it has anything to do with defending one's life or following the orders of the authority over you (president)

In the old testament, we see examples of the men having to serve in the "army"

In Num 26:2 Take the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, from twenty years old and upward, throughout their fathers' house, all that are able to go to war in Israel. God even made provision for the newly married -- he didn't have to serve for a year! (Deu 24:5 When a man hath taken a new wife, he shall not go out to war, neither shall he be charged with any business: [but] he shall be free at home one year, and shall cheer up his wife which he hath taken. )

All authority comes from God. I would assume that the office of President is included. If the president decides that it is in the best interest of the country to go to war, then I think it is the duty of the Christian man to serve in that capacity.

I realize that the 6th Commandment tells us not to kill. There are examples of killing that were not considered murder -- such as when the people were told to stone the guilty....capital punishment.

I may have a very biased view point. Both my parents served in the army and I myself served in the Air Force. (Although, looking back it is not something that I would recommend for any woman!)

If I am way off-base here, I would appreciate the explanations
Thanks in advance

Donna

[Brother Ben]

One is expected to protect his own family.

1Ti 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

But the job of going to war and rendering evil, killing, for evil to others is clearly explained in scripture.

Jam 1:20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

Pro 16:14 The wrath of a king [is as] messengers of death: but a wise man will pacify it.

Mat 5:39 But I [Jesus]* say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. *insertion mine

It is the job of the government to punish evil doers.

Rom 13:1 ¶ Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Rom 13:5 Wherefore [ye] must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

Rom 13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute [is due]; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Rom 13:8 ¶ Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Pro 16:14 The wrath of a king [is as] messengers of death: but a wise man will pacify it.


Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil

Luk 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw [this], they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

I am the son of an Air Force man, my oldest brother was an Air Force man, I was a military dependent. My father-in-law is a retired full bird Army Colonel. He turned down an offer to become General, and opted to retire. He went over to Egypt a few years before Operation Desert Shield and Storm to lay the ground-work for those missions. My son grew up dreaming of joining the Marines.

But...the scripture began to speak to our hearts because we asked the Lord to remove from our eyes the red, white, and blue filters we had been wearing.

Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Let the nations war one with another. When one comes to rape, assault, or kill your family or the dear ones near you...

Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

...do what the Bible says, not George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, or George Bush, but what God Almighty has said through his Son. These teaching are not Mennonite or Amish in origin, but are taken from the beliefs of early Christians and those who came to be know as the anabaptists from where we come from too.

You must decided if you are going to take up your cross and follow Jesus, or follow man and the kingdom of this world. You deny the mighty deed God could do by faith if you chose to put yourself in the place of the one to be assaulted.

Personal experience is deep in the human soul, but the commandment of God is deeper.

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Jhn 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

[ssab12003]

Thank you Bro Ben, I appreciate you clarifing what I was trying to say. You did a much better job than I. God Bless, Alane

[Donna]

Thank you Brother Ben. I do have some additional questions, if I may. If I am understanding you correctly, you would say that we have a right and responsiblity to protect or defend against assault or attack of our family members. Would this apply to our home and property? And may I further say that if the worse were to happen, once we were taken over by the "enemy" we are to assume a passive attitude and leave our fate to our heavenly Father?

Do you think the protection of our fellow Christians is included in this -- or am I stretching the facts?

I want to add a very heartfelt thank you for the time and effort that you put into your responses. Especially to questions that you may have answered previously. You seem to always be patient with those of us who may not quite get it yet.

Donna

[Brother Ben]

Sister Donna,
Read the following verse and think about the the power of prayer and of a godly testimony...

2Cr 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

I promise, though the sight of a .357 magnum is more menacing, the power of prayer can bring down strongholds.

The Lord never told you to defend you property and home. We have friends who have taken God at his word on this and NEVER lock any of their doors. Now some would call this presumptuous and naive, but do you know, they have NEVER been robbed, pilfered, or pilaged. They believe God to be their guard, watch dog, security system, and deliverer.

The enemy took over Jerusalem, but the godly seed were preserved by the "very" government of Babylon. The only, and I say ONLY reason God watched over Daniel, and the other three godly young Hebrew men was because they honored Gods principles and did not respond to the threat with carnal reasoning, but spiritual. God can use the enemy to protect and bless the children of God, he has done it before.

Modern American Christianity is anemic, and faithless. We don't know how to get ahold of God anymore and therefore it is only natural to think we have to take things into our own hands.

If persecution comes, we are not going to have .357 magnums, only our Bibles (and they may take them away,) and prayer.

Strengthen the things that remain.

(More later.)