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Post by robinva on Jul 19, 2005 10:07:17 GMT -5
If you have been following the thread on the general board concerning Godly, doctrinally sound churches you would have read Bro. Ben explanation of the difference between Baptist and Anabaptist doctrine on the eternal salvation of believers. I am overwhelmed at the abundance of scripture (even in the OT) of the security of believers in Christ.
Would you please post scripture and referernce supporting this doctrine.
I grew up in Baptist churches and in my early 20's while still involved in the Baptist church I began doubting some of our doctrine, such a eternal security. Because if some believed otherwise what made us Baptist so sure we were right. It didn't take long for me to find
Eph. 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
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Post by sticktotheoldway on Aug 2, 2005 11:02:04 GMT -5
Here are some verses on eternal security:
John 10:27-29
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. "
Romans 8:1
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
Romans 8:35-39
"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 11:16
"For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches."
1 Corinthians 3:15
"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."
2 Corinthians 1:22
"Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."
Ephesians 1:13
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"
Ephesians 4:30
"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."
Philippians 1:6
"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"
Philippians 2:12-13
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it."
2 Timothy 2:17-21
"And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work."
Hebrews 7:11
"If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?"
Hebrews 9:12
"Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us."
Hebrews 10:10,14
"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
"For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."
1 Peter 1:3-5
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
1 John 2:1-2
"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
1 John 3:9
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
Jude 1
"Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:"
Jude 24
"Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,"
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Post by George on Aug 14, 2005 23:48:55 GMT -5
I would like to add that Romans 8:9 dispells a lot of error in this doctrine and may be one of the most important verses in the Bible dealing with eternal security.
Let us take a look at that verse. First we see that the Apostle Paul is speaking to saved and born again believers. It has to be so because the meaning of the phrase "if so be" also means, or is a different way of saying, "seeing." Or, as we used to say in the South when I lived there, "seeing as how." Paul is saying we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit seeing as how the Spirit of God dwells in us.
The Bible clearly tells us the Holy Spirit indwells us at the time of salvation. We can see from the rest of Romans 8:9 that if the Holy Spirit does not indwell us we are "none of his," meaning we are not saved.
Now take a look at the following:
This is a description of the "operation" or working of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is as the wind in the sense the He works independently, He is a free agent in regeneration; He works how, and where, and when He pleases; He acts freely in the first operation of His grace on the heart, and in all after influences of it; as well as in the donation of His gifts to men. The Holy Spirit is also perpetual. He, being part of the godhead, is infinite.
Since we know the Holy Spirit indwells us at the time of salvation and we know He works independently and free of any influence from any source, He is as free as the wind, that means there is nothing we can do as humans to rid ourselves of Him. He is there at the time of salvation and there perpetually.
One of the sure ways of knowing the presence of the Holy Spirit in us is the war of the flesh against the spirit as Paul describes it.
This is the uneasy feeling we get when we sin. This is the sometimes extremely pronounced feeling we get that I describe personally as being "creepy." It is the waring of the flesh against the Spirit and a sure way of knowing we are saved. Since the Holy Spirit indwells us at the time of salvation, He is independent and free of any influence from us and He is perpetual and infinite we can do nothing to lose him in us.
That friends is eternal security.
Yours in Christ,
George Groce
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Post by George on Aug 16, 2005 1:40:59 GMT -5
There is a rather excellent exposition of eternal security found in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5. Let me give you the verses first:
Let us break down this study on eternal security. In verse 1 we see the existence of a rather abhorant sexual sin. It is widely known among the Church members in Corinth. Look at the nature of the sin. Here we see a man who had remarried. We do not know under what circumstances. Perhaps he is a widower. Anyway, the son wants to "have" his step-mother. The son wants to have some kind of abominable relationship with his step-mother, his father's wife! The verse continues to tell us the sin is so abhorant it is not even known, practiced or probably even tolerated in the pagan culture of the Gentiles.
In verse 2 we see that the Church members in Corinth are so vain and conceited that rather than mourn the offense and be so troubled and afflicted by it, the offender is to be removed from the Church, they apparently had some kind of conceit and pride the man was a member of the Church and did not want to discipline him. This may be the first teaching on Church discipline in the Bible. If it not the first it definitely teaches us that one who commits such a sin ought be removed from the Church as a cancer is from the body.
Then in verse 3 we see Paul saying that although he is absent in body he is present with the Corinthian Church in spirit. We see also that he has judged this individual. The Greek actually means he determined. He has made up his mind and decided what action should be taken.
In verse 4 Paul goes on to invoke the authority granted him by our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ or to say he is acting "on behalf of" Jesus Christ in the matter. He mentions them being gathered together. They had obviously been gathered together to address this most serious and abhorant of problems. Paul says not only are they gathered together but he is there with them in spirit. It cannot mean that Paul’s soul would be really present with them, but that, knowing his views and feelings, and what he would do, and knowing his love for them, they could act as if he were there.
Okay, the first four verses were basically the background of the problem. Now in verse 5 comes the part about eternal security. The situation gets really serious here in verse five.
In the first part of the verse we see the instruction given as to what the disposition of this sinner ought be. " To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh," Do you see that? Paul is telling them to allow the man to be delivered to or be allowed to follow Satan to the very death. Paul says that if the man continues in his ways without repentance he should be allowed to be kicked around by the devil even to the paying of the ultimate price of death; the destruction of the flesh. This is not saying that the nature of the discipline handed down by the Church would or even could lead to the man's death. It is saying that Satan should be allowed to do whatever necessary until such time as the man sees the error of his ways and returns to the fold. Even to the point of physical death if he does not get right with God.
But...look at the last part of the verse:
That his soul might be saved; that he might be corrected, humbled, and reformed by these sufferings, and recalled to the paths of piety and virtue. WOW! Do you see that? This backslidden Christian can sink to the point of his relationship with sin and the enemy that he may perish in the flesh but his SOUL WILL BE SAVED! Amen! In the day of the Lord Jesus is speaking of the day of judgment. It is known and taught in the Bible that the day of judgment for Christians comes at death. If Jesus does not come back first our actions will be judged at the time of our death. Our actions will be judged but notice we see here that although this man had committed a heinous sexual sin, his soul would be saved.
What more evidence does one need that salvation is eternal? It is widely accepted that sexual sins are probably the most abhorant there are in the eyes of God. This man committed a sin so terrible the Church members are told to kick him out of the Church and let the devil have his way with him and yet his soul will not perish in the lake of fire.
Incidentally, if anyone is curious, the man did come around and repent. Look at 2 Corinthians 2:6-8:
This is speaking of the very same man and Paul is saying he ought be forgiven in our eyes and that the love of the Church for him after he repents and confesses his sin ought be confirmed. We see here that we, as Christians, ought not tolerate sin, but when the sinner repents and is willing to get right we ought accept it and forgive him. Sometimes we as Christians are even harder than God, the Father.
God, for the sake of His Son, who loved us and gave Himself for us has forgiven us. How can we are creations of the Creator not forgive others who have come in the spirit of repentance, forgiveness and humility? It ought not be so.
The point is that no matter how terrible the sin, and no matter the price paid for it, and no matter the extent of our backsliding, our soul will not perish. that friends is eternal security.
Yours in Christ,
George Groce
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Post by Brother Ben on Aug 16, 2005 7:37:06 GMT -5
Bro. George,
Thank you for that example of doctrinal clarification and a proper attitude toward sin, repentence, and restoration. Being our board RU guy, I couldn't help seeing your heart in the restoration of the brother mentioned in I Cor. 5. I am thankful that there is a group of believers commited to the RU program. Yes, it is better that one never falls into sin, but we live in a sin curse world. Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Compassion not only wins the lost, but commits to rescueing their lives. Thanks for your work, Bro. George, your a blessing.
Bro. Ben
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Post by benshelpmeet on Aug 16, 2005 15:07:51 GMT -5
Amen! Brother George, Your a blessing to this site. I also liked what you had to say about the Holy Spirit! That was a Blessing to my soul. ...It reminded me of His part in the believers life.  Have a great Day brother. |
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Post by George on Oct 27, 2005 20:09:34 GMT -5
The subject of Eternal Security has come up again on the boards. I would like to share with you some writing I did on the subject a few months ago.
(This is the first part of the study.)
Not too long ago I had a student in Reformers Unanimous that has previously attended a different Church. This man was extremely confused as to the issue of Eternal Security. The Church that he was attending was teaching that it is possible to lose one’s Salvation. This gross error was being taught as doctrine in the church he attended. There is absolutely no Biblical basis for this concept. I have no idea where in the Bible this idea supposedly comes from but there is much in the Bible that teaches us just the contrary. The Bible tells us over and over again that once we are Saved we are Saved.
To that end I would like to explain to you how I come to that conclusion so that in case you may run into someone else that is of the erroneous idea that Salvation can be lost you may be able to deal with him or her through God’s Holy Word, the Bible rather than have them believe something that is quite obviously false doctrine and possibly even may have been constructed or concocted by man and not The Lord.
“Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. “
In this verse we see that as human beings that are born with a sin nature we deserve to die. Most of us deserve at least the second death while some of us deserve both the first and second death. We also see reference in this verse that eternal life is a GIFT of God. More on that in a bit.
“Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: “
Once again in this quite well known verse we see reference to the FACT that Salvation is a GIFT! We also see the fact that there is nothing we can do to merit that gift. The Bible says “all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.” (Isa 64:6) But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.” Not only are all our righteousnesses as filthy rags to God, we also see here that we are all as an unclean thing. We are all polluted and defiled and all of our prayers, sacrifices, alms and praises are mingled with that pollution. Out of our mouths come not only prayers and praises to God but the things of this world also.
Before we go any farther let us take a look at the word “gift.” The first definition below comes from the Webster’s 1828 Dictionary.
“GIFT, n. [from give.] A present; any thing given or bestowed; any thing, the property of which is voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation; a donation. It is applicable to any thing movable or immovable.”
Please pay particular attention to the part of that definition that tells us it pertains to anything that is given or bestowed and that it is also voluntarily transferred WITHOUT COMPENSATION. In other words, there is not only nothing that we can do to deserve it (Salvation) because we are unrighteous, tainted, sinful human beings, but it is freely given to us without any kind of compensation or even the expectation of payment. How can we pay for something we don’t have the means to pay with?
G1435 (gift)
δῶρον
dōron
do'-ron
A present; specifically a sacrifice: - gift, offering.
This definition comes from the Greek of the New Testament. Note again that it refers to a sacrifice. That is not pertaining to anything we have to sacrifice (although we are expected to sacrifice our sinful habits and nature to God), it pertains to the fact that God has determined to sacrifice His Goodness, Mercy and Grace for our benefit. What an incredible thing that is. We don’t deserve it, there is nothing we can do to earn it and yet He gives it to us anyway. All we have to do is ask.
Act 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
Let me share with you what Albert Barnes has to say about Acts 8:20:
The gift of God - That which he has “given,” or conferred as a favor. The idea was absurd that what God himself gave as a sovereign could be purchased. It was “impious” to think of attempting to buy with worthless gold what was of so inestimable value. The “gift of God” here means the extraordinary influences of the Holy Spirit, Act_10:45; Act_11:17. How can we pay a “price” to God? All that “we” can give, the silver, and the gold, and the cattle on a thousand hills, belong to him already. We have “nothing” which we can present for his favors. And yet there are many who seek to “purchase” the favor of God. Some do it by alms and prayers; some by penance and fasting; some by attempting to make their own hearts better, and by self-righteousness; and some by penitence and tears. All these will not “purchase” his favor. Salvation, like every other blessing, will be “his gift”; and if ever received, we must be willing to accept it on his own terms; at his own time; in his own way. We are without merit; and if saved, it will be by the sovereign grace of God.
Now that pretty well says it all! That is absolutely nothing that we can do to deserve or earn the Gift of God, eternal life. If we think there is then we are dealing with Salvation by works and that is completely contrary to the teachings of the Bible as demonstrated above.
(the second part follows)
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Post by George on Oct 27, 2005 20:17:39 GMT -5
(This is the second and last part of the study.)
Let us take a look at some of the many verses in the Bible that explain, in no uncertain terms, that Salvation is not only as stated above but is also eternal and everlasting. There are many such verses and stories. I will provide a few of them that I believe point out this fact without doubt.
Probably the most well known verse in the Bible is John 3:16:
(Joh 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Actually one need not go any farther than that particular verse. If you dissect and define that verse you will see first that all you have to do is believe. Believe in our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. Right after that it tells us the result of our belief in Christ. Does it not say “but have everlasting life?” Everlasting is everlasting. It is eternal. It is forever. This verse does not say that you will receive conditional everlasting life. It does not say that you will receive everlasting life based on anything you can or should do other than believe in Christ Jesus. It does not say that you will receive everlasting life that is susceptible to being taken away if you are not good. It does not say that you will receive everlasting life based on how many doors you knock on of a Saturday morning. It does not apply any conditions of any type or sort to Salvation except the all-important belief in Jesus Christ.
(1Jo 5:11) And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. (1Jo 5:12) He that hath the Son hath life: and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. (1Jo 5:13) These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
John speaks here of the things that he has written. If you go back and read 1 John you can see the entire message he speaks of in this phrase. Notice carefully that John says that these things have been written to those that believe on the name of the Son of God, THAT YE MAY KNOW THAT YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE! What does this mean? It means that this epistle was written so that we can be assured of our Salvation for all eternity. Assured! So that we can KNOW that we have eternal life.
Very interesting is the verse that immediately precedes these.
(1Jo 5:10) He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
That is pretty blunt and even frightening to me. We are told that if we don’t believe God we have made Him a liar. (Shudder!) I don’t know about anyone else but I do not even want to think of the possible results of making God out a liar. Is the Bible, or is it not, God’s Holy Word? Do we not believe as independent, fundamental, New Testament Baptists that the King James Bible is the inerrant Word of God, preserved as such for the believer? The Bible (God’s Word and therefore an extension of God) tells us repeatedly that we have eternal life by our belief in Jesus. Nothing more and nothing less. If we doubt that we have made the Bible a false document and have therefore made God a liar and then we better hope and pray with everything we have that we are not taken out of this life immediately. In fact, if we do not believe that Salvation is eternal and everlasting and that we cannot lose it we might as well throw our Bibles in the trash and go out and eat, drink and be merry. (That is a whole different series of lessons.)
Look at some of the other rather familiar verses that are part of the Romans Road that is quite commonly used for leading others to Jesus.
(Rom 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Rom 10:10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Is it difficult to see and understand what the Apostle Paul writes there? I don’t think it is all that difficult. To put it in easy words, acknowledge (confess) the Lord, Jesus, believe that He was raised from the dead on the third day and…thou shalt be saved. That is all that is required. Again, we do not earn it and nay, we do not even deserve it. My word, I am so thankful that God does not mete out justice! Look at the end of Romans 10: “with the mouth confession is made unto Salvation.” I added the capital “S” to Salvation because not only is it the most important decision we can ever make in our life it is also of God and therefore deserves and warrants a capital letter.
(Joh 10:27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (Joh 10:28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (Joh 10:29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Here is an interesting exposition of the fact that not only is Salvation eternal and a gift (“I GIVE unto them eternal life”) but that there is no man that can pluck us out of God’s hand. There is no man that can do anything to cause us to lose our Salvation. Brothers and sisters, “no man” includes you and I. Think about that. Since no man can pluck us out of The Father’s hand once we have received the gift and no man includes you and I, there is nothing we can do to lose Salvation.
Certainly it is possible to fall from grace. That is entirely different. If we fall from grace, and I do on a daily basis for the simple reason that the Bible tells us that any “little” sin grieves God’s heart and as a mortal human being born with a sin nature I cannot help but sin no matter how hard I try not to.
One of the ways that we can fall from grace is by the testing, trying or losing of our faith. Not only that but if we put faith in faith alone we will fall flat on our faces. Although sometimes that is where God wants us, flat on our faces in the dirt, as did Paul on the road to Damascus, we must have faith in God so that these things happen less and less often. We are supposed to grow in grace so that the trials and tribulations of this life are lessened.
(2 Peter 3:17) Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness. (2 Peter 3:18) But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever. Amen.
Recall the story of Peter and his losing his steadfastness and falling from grace by losing his faith.
(Matthew 14:28) And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water. (Matthew 14:29) And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus. (Matthew 14:30) But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me. (Matthew 14:31) And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?
When we lose our faith we can in no way predict the consequences. Most certainly we will fall from grace and suffer consequences as did Peter. You have seen me write many times before that in Reformers Unanimous we use a set of 10 Principles. Principle #9 speaks to just this very situation. “We lose our freedom of choice after we have chosen our actions. The consequences of our choices are inevitable, incalculable and up to God.” If we make a bad decision we will suffer the consequences. Look at what this Principle says. When we make a bad decision we know that something is going to happen (inevitable). We don’t know what, we can’t predict when, and we don’t know how it is going to happen (incalculable). For the simple reason that it is all up to God!
So we lose our faith or even relax it a little. We fall from grace and we pay for it in this life. Does that mean that we are not saved? Does that indicate in any way that we can lose our Salvation? I don’t see it.
Salvation is eternal. Since there is nothing that we can do to earn or deserve it there is nothing we can do to lose it.
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