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Post by benshelpmeet on Jan 1, 2007 12:14:04 GMT -5
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Post by Brother Ben on Feb 20, 2007 23:58:07 GMT -5
Consider this in regards to Christians going to war. Christ commands us to love our enemies, to bless them and not to curse them. To do no murder. However, Catholicism and Reformed Theology both taught that State/Church sponsored killing is o.k. in the eyes of God. So, what if the State/Church wanted us to commit some other violation of God's word. How about bow down and worship an image of the Devil. Would you do that for the State? For the Church? I hope not. Why then would you kill men who without Christ will spend eternity in Hell?
War is ordained of God, but Christians are never told to kill for the State or Church and forgo any responsibility for their actions.
Again, read the words of Christ in the Sermon on the Mount and other N.T. readings. We need to adjust our theology instead of expain away the CLEAR commands of Christ.
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Post by parris on Mar 2, 2007 23:22:42 GMT -5
I come from a military family:
I was in the Air Force for 11 years. Also in the military were my grandfather, my biological father, my adopted father, my ex-husband, by brothers-in-law, my sister, and my son.
If I were the same person when I joined, that I am now, I would not have joined. Just like our sister "Covered Wife" posted, women cannot serve in dresses and headcoverings. Not to mention that women should not be in male-dominated fields. It is asking for trouble. I know because I was a jet engine mechanic.
If I could take my son out of the Marines right now, and my sister out of the Air Force, I would. I look at it so much differently now than I did before.
Thanks for addressing this issue. In Christ, Traci
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Post by dragonfly on Mar 3, 2007 23:25:47 GMT -5
I too must admit that I look at it much differently than I used to, and would not go in. I do ponder though what would the army or navy or marines look like with a bunch of unsaved people fighting for our county... jsut thinking out loud here.. it would be in a worse state than it is now.
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Post by Brother Randy on Mar 4, 2007 19:58:35 GMT -5
I too must admit that I look at it much differently than I used to, and would not go in. I do ponder though what would the army or navy or marines look like with a bunch of unsaved people fighting for our county... jsut thinking out loud here.. it would be in a worse state than it is now. D'Ann, When one thinks that they are fighting evil it seems like that maybe it is ok for Christians to be in the Army and fight for God and country. When in the Army you are trained to kill or be killed. Now to bring this a little closer to home. During the Civil War there surely was believers on both sides killing one another. How would it make you feel if the person you just killed was your brother or sister? I do think that we error when we as Christians believe we are needed to make the world a better and safer place. The only real change we can do is bringing the word to those unsaved that their hearts might be changed. Good laws don't make good people. Just some thoughts. Bro Randy
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Post by BillysWife on Mar 5, 2007 9:51:36 GMT -5
God has been showing me a lot of these things--a lot from reading the articles here, and also studying on my own. It is hard for me to hold to this, as I have 4 brothers, and they all joined the military. I had a discussion one day with two of my brothers about this, and they brought up questions I wasn't sure how to answer. In the course of conversation, I mentioned that if I were in a battle for whatever reason, and the enemy shot at me, I would rather he shoot and kill me, (because I know where I'm going) rather than me shoot him, and he end up going to hell. So they asked "What if we shot the insurgent, killed one man, and ended up being able to keep our battle buddies alive, especially the ones who might not be saved"? Or, "What if we as Christians, stay home, and send over a bunch of unsaved guys who are going to die and go to hell? Why not us go and let the unsaved guys have another chance to be saved." What would be the best answer to these questions? Of course, they see it differently, being trained with the Army's way of "kill the enemy", and I can't force (not will I try) any of my beliefs on them, it's going to have to be God.
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Post by Brother Ben on Mar 5, 2007 14:34:52 GMT -5
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Because one (military personell) does not know if he is killing the right guy, he, in many cases, commits murder. This is not a work of the Spirit, but a work of the flesh, and those that do such deeds will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Even if these men (insurgents) are wicked enemies of mankind, they still fall under the direct command of Christ:
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
We have been condiioned into accepting the government approved act of killing. Christ said for us to love them, pray for them, and bless them. This is the characteristic of those who are going to heaven.
If they kill one guy, the insurgent, they still have taken a human life which is created in the image of God.
om 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
It is the job of the law and armieis to fight and kill, but it is the duty of the citizen of the kingdom of God to be a peacemaker.
Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
These teachings only come to one as they lay aside all their preferences and let the word of the Lord speak into their life.
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Post by joanneshr on Mar 6, 2007 8:43:23 GMT -5
The children and I also believe in nonresistance. My husband is in the Army and is excited to get out after he gets deployed. Thankfully his job is to help the injured, although he does have to carry a weapon and is instructed to use it if need be. We (the children and I) have shared the teachings of Jesus to him, and even though he is not a Christian, he sees it clearly that Jesus teaches against killing. The children have an Uncle whom we are all very close to and visit quite a bit. He is a very strong willed man and he KNOWS he's right about everything he believes of the Bible (at least that's the way it always seems). That in itself is a sin, IMHO. We should be humble and teachable, right? To believe and know that you have all the answers is not biblical. He knows he's right on this subject and many times will corner my oldest son, who usually does a great job holding his own. However Uncle makes it sound ok that Christians go and kill other people. Tylor still holds to his convictions that killing ANYONE is wrong, however he finds it very hard to talk to Uncle since he is such a proud man; and he has a very convincing case ( at the time, but then once Tylor has time to think it over and sees the Scriptures again, he just does not understand how Uncle believes it's ok for Christians to kill). Does anyone have a suggestion on what Tylor can do when cornered by his Uncle? Maybe a good question Tylor could ask him the next time he confronts him? He gets so hurt when it happens - he used to look up to him, but now he just sees him mostly as a proud man ... this image is hard to shake when it's all you can see. Maybe I should ask some time if he would write down why he believes it is ok to kill?? Like I said though, he's so proud and hard to talk to ... but if he really believes he's right, then maybe he wouldn't mind sharing on paper why he feels he is right?? Then that might leave the doors open for us to respond on why we think he is wrong? Just thinking out loud here. There's other issues we have with Uncle - two other main ones would be competitive sports and television. Ok, one more, worldly music. He just thinks we are legalistic and basically a little nuts!!! The deeper my walk gets with God, the harder it is to hang around him ... however they have little children that we love so much!!! The children are also just like their papa, especially the boys. What do we do!!! I guess this reply turned into more than I had planned it to, but it's been on my heart for quite a while now. It's becoming harder and harder to hang around them, but we love them so much and I feel maybe we are being a good example?? Any counsel, advice, suggestions, etc. will be greatly appreciated!
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Post by Brother Ben on Mar 7, 2007 8:48:50 GMT -5
I think a good scripture to have on hand is the following:
Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
I would politely and respectfully ask "Uncle" if he thougth Jesus literally meant what he said when he told Pilate what he did in the verse above.
But, again, these truthes are mysteries of the kingdom and most modern day, American Christians cannot see them. With the onset of reformed theology in the 1500's, Zwingli and Luther pretty much included State and Church and justified killing for the greater good of the church. This was in clear violation of the scripture, but as the Reformation spread like wildfire, much of it for good, it also spread the false teaching of justified killing on behalf of the State. Without knowing the source of this teaching in the church, one will not see the error of improperly placed patriotism. Yes, we shoudl be for our country, love it, pray for it, etc., but not SIN for it.
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Post by joanneshr on Mar 7, 2007 14:18:44 GMT -5
Thank you Brother, that gives us a good place to start. I talked to Tylor a little bit about it yesterday and we both thought a good solid study on the history of the Church would be a great idea. We didn't really know where to start, so we started by listing a few of the passages in the NT that speak of nonresistance. We picked some of them apart as best as we could using only Strong's. I ordered an 1828 dictionary today to help with this and all of our other studies (I'm so excited to get it!). It's available online for free, but having it in hard copy would be so nice. I also ordered Martyr's Mirror; the children have been wanting that for quite some time now ... I did not tell them I ordered any of it Last night while working in the kitchen (taking down some wall paper!), we listened to Brother Mose (Charity) recent sermon titled "The Early Christian Church" - which is kind of funny because we started our study and decided to study the early church before listening to that! Anyway, he mentioned the Didache - which is supposed to be teachings from the Apostles that were written down?? I looked it up today and it was easy to find several translations online - all of them said basically the same things; I stuck with the ones that did not have commentaries. I thought this was pretty interesting though since I did not know about it before last night. Anyway, the sermon was very nice, we all enjoyed it. SO, now that we plan to study early church history, does anyone have suggestions? I have read a few books by David Bercot (I did not read all of "A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs" .. but looked at that as well). He's really the only author I know of; any other suggestions? Thanks again!!
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Post by BillysWife on Mar 7, 2007 22:32:45 GMT -5
I have a couple more questions. I'm not trying to be difficult, but these are things I've heard said by people I know, and I don't know what to tell them. In the OT, God commanded David (and others) to fight, and kill the evil guys--this is often an argument I've heard for war. Also, what if war is God's method for stopping the evil of a country, the leader, etc.? Or, what about the verse in Hebrews (I think it is) that says "He beareth not the sword in vain."?
Again, I'm not trying to be difficult, but in my conversation with my brothers, they brought these up, and since this is all new to me, I wasn't sure how to respond. I believe in nonresistance, loving instead of hating and killing, but I often wonder about the above, as it's not yet clear to me.
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Post by Brother Randy on Mar 7, 2007 23:04:06 GMT -5
Sister , you should go back to my posting in Nov on this. The tract I posted I believe has some good answers for these questions.
I don't believe you are being difficult but rather trying to get a better understanding of this.
I know it is very hard to get others to understand when they have been in a church that promotes the going to war.
Sometimes we need to remember that we can't change peoples minds, just show them what the Bible says and how we understand it then commit it into Gods hands and pray for them.
Bro Randy
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Post by Brother Ben on Mar 8, 2007 8:30:18 GMT -5
The book, 'The Kingdom That Turned The World Upside Down,' by David Bercot, is a good resource also. He is quite well read on the topic of the Ante-Niceane Fathers and the Early Church. It is quite a fascinating read. He covers the topic of the historic view of the church and war very aptly.
Sister Naomi (I think, right? GodsAmbassador) You said:
The key phrase in this comment is, "In the OT..." yes that is what God said in the Old Testament when the kingdom was a land, now it is a "life." God has not promised us a land, here and now. We look for a city whose builder and maker is God (Heb. 11.)
Jesus said, refering to the Old Testament way of dealing with things as compared to the New Covenant,
Mat 5:38 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, [In the O.T., insert mine,] An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, [under the New Covenant, insert mine,] That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Many create doctrines and practices because they do not know how to discern between (divide) the things of the O.T. that are done away with in the person of Christ, and things that are not.
God told the Israelites to go out and smite certain wicked people because he was stamping out thier polution in the "land." God has not given us New Covenant believers a land, he has given us a "life," the new Christian life of peace and love, even for our enemies.
You also said,
Rom 13:1 ¶ Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.
This a passage refering to law enforcement whether it be the local police, or the armed forces. However, it does not negate the demands Christ puts on the "believers" life. Yes, law enforcement does not bear the sword in vain because they are "used by God" to keep order because God is a God of order and authority, but this does not mean God's children are to fulfill this position, because it also means that the communist regimes are "ordainded, " of God for the same purpose. We may not agree with their methodology, but they are "used by God," to keep order. Under Sadam Hussein, Iraq dwealt in relative peace. Yes, they were oppressive to their own people, but they kept order. They bore not the sword in vain. So should believers have been a part of his (Hussein,s) police or army? Or how about the Communists of Russia or China? Their authority is ordained of God (not their methods of doing it.) Should believers take part in their excercise of authority (thier methods?) No.
So, you see, we are citizens of "another" kingdom, even though we dwell right here in the midst of this one called America. Sister, to whom do you owe your ultimate allegiance? God. So you must obey his laws and command first. You can only obey Americas as they do not contradict those of the kingdom of God.
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Post by BillysWife on Mar 8, 2007 10:59:07 GMT -5
Thank you, that post was very helpful to me. Especially when you said "the authority is ordained of God, but not their methods." And the part about the OT, and the Israelites--that is so clear to me now! I've always heard it interpreted as pro-war, but they were actually fighting to protect the land God gave them. Thank you for answering my questions. It's such a blessing to be a part of a board that backs everything up with Scripture, regardless of whether it's "popular belief" or not.
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Post by coveredwife on Mar 8, 2007 11:00:19 GMT -5
Here I go again, I love this group and the fact that we can all be part of something so beautiful. The Kingdom of God.
With that said, I still have a hard time with the whole anti-military thing. These service men truly believe they are protecting us and our freedoms. Many of us who speak out against the silly things the government does, would be killed for speaking out our opinions. War is something that will never go away. I don't believe it is a fair fight anymore. It is to high tech and technology makes it easier for a man to kill another. He no longer has a sword and has to look the enemy in the eye. Man can now kill from great distances.
Here is my question to you, would you allow a man with a gun to threaten your wives and children, or would you stand up to him and fight back? These Soldiers are brave men and women fighting for the truths they believe in. If you do not choose to take up the sword and fight with them, at least be thankful they are willing to do it for you.
I do agree that a woman has no place in the military. Strange being 8 years ago I was myself, a soldier in the Army, but I believe a woman is not made to be the protector. We were created as a supporter. Maybe that is why I wrote this. My husband is a soldier in the United States Army. I support him fully in his choice to be protector of this country and this family.
With this said, I am thankful we are both free to speak our minds from both sides of this discussion. I believe we can both learn from each other and maybe someday, we will all come to a middle ground.
Loved by Him, Heather
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