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Post by parris on Feb 26, 2007 22:14:30 GMT -5
I think I may have to leave my present church because of their belief on repentance. They say that when we are told to repent it does not mean to turn away from your sins, but to turn away from unbelief. Apparently this is a belief strongly held by Hyles-Anderson graduates which my pastor and his wife are.
I know this is wrong, but how should I handle this situation? I have no husband to make these decisions for me, but I have had two godly men advise me to leave the church. How do I do this and rip my children away from our church family searching for a new church and leaving behind such close friends? The pastors family has done so much for me and my children.
Thanks,
Traci
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Post by Brother Ben on Feb 27, 2007 8:44:02 GMT -5
I too used to believe repentance the way they describe it, but have since then changed my view. There is a tape set you can order from Charity Gospel Tape Ministry by Darrell Champlin, a Baptist missionary to the Congo and later to Surinam (sp?) S.A. He explains that traditionally, the Baptists used to preach straight repentance, but as society changed, in the late 50's and 60's and became more permissive, the demand for repentance, (turning from your sin to Christ,) was watered down to just turning from your unbelief in order to make door-to-door soul winning more productive. Yes, sadly it became a ploy to up the numbers, a sin often practiced in the IFB churches. That is why a church can boast 10,000 professions in one year, 1200 baptisms, and only 76 added to the church. There is something wrong with those statistics. In his tape set, 'The Biblical Theology of Missions,' www.charityministries.org/tapeministry/detail.cfm?index=SET105he explains what happened to the gospel. The number of believers he had saved, baptized, and join the church were almost 1:1 ratio. That is how it should be. If Christ really saved you from the wrath to come, you will go on for God, almost every time. Be careful before you make a hasty jump from the Hyles Anderson church, you do not want jump out of the frying pan and into the fire. Pray, do some research, visit a couple of churches on a Wednesday night, and make a wise informed move. Bro. Ben P.S. I know some IFB pastors in the DFW area, I'll try to think of some who do not go to that excess. P.S.S. While your at it, order Darrells tape, 'Love With Shoes On,' it will bless your heart. www.charityministries.org/tapeministry/detail.cfm?index=480
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Post by jeff on Feb 27, 2007 15:36:53 GMT -5
I suppose I’ve seen both good and bad from Hyles-Anderson. I’ve met some really wonderful folks that went there. I’ve also seen some teaching from there that I disagree with.
I’ve read a couple of books by folks affiliated with Jack Hyles or that went to HAC. I guess the thing that stands out in my mind is the slam-bam blitzkrieg style of soul-winning that they seem to advocate. Like Bro. Ben said, it’s apparent that this is done to boost numbers. In the examples that I saw quoted from the books, you knock on the door, present the gospel, and practically force a “sinner’s prayer” out of folks. Then get them to church that night to baptize them so it will count in some total. The “new converts” are so caught up in the blur of words and activity that they probably don’t really understand what is going on. Many come to church for a Sunday or two until the new wears off, and many don’t return at all. I know this doesn’t represent every church or every person associated with HAC, but it seems to be rather common.
This method leaves out true repentance (turning from sin vs. turning from unbelief), leaves out the leading of the Holy Spirit, and in the end produces unsaved people that think they did something life changing. And many might go straight to hell thinking that they are saved.
Keeping you in my prayers, Traci. It's a tough decision.
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Post by parris on Feb 27, 2007 18:22:51 GMT -5
I have been listening to those recordings from Charity Ministries online while I am at work. I enjoy them.
I have been working on a paper that describes my stand on repentance as I understand the Bible. I was going to post it on this message, but when I paste it, the colors, font and underlining are changed to plain text. It there a way to post it or attach it so I don't have to edit it (7 pages) to reflect the colors, etc?
Thanks,
Traci
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Post by Brother Randy on Feb 27, 2007 23:37:53 GMT -5
[quote author=, That is why a church can boast 10,000 professions in one year, 1200 baptisms, and only 76 added to the church. There is something wrong with those statistics. P.S.S. While your at it, order Darrells tape, 'Love With Shoes On,' it will bless your heart. www.charityministries.org/tapeministry/detail.cfm?index=480[/quote] This is the one thing I saw a good number of years ago when I was a deacon in a IFB church. I could never understand having special meeting , someone professing salvation , {repeat after me} then baptized that night and then you may never see them again in church. But boy did it sound good come that annual business meeting and say we had # baptized and members added to the church . The bus ministry is another one with some question to it, of which HAC was very much into. Bro Ben did you know that Bro Denny of Charity went to HAC, before the Lord got him going in a different direction. The tape of of his personal testimony is really good. I have and have heard Darrell's tapes they are good. Bro Randy
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Post by parris on Feb 28, 2007 0:03:03 GMT -5
Speaking of Bro Denny of Charity, have you ever heard him preach anything that was not in line with what we as IFB's believe? So far, I don't think I have heard anything against what I understand the Bible to say, but I am far from listening to him preach on every subject.
God bless you brothers, Traci
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Post by qfmamato4 on Feb 28, 2007 0:35:31 GMT -5
I know IFB'ers believe once saved always saved.... Like, you say the sinners prayer and then not do one think for Christ.... You are still saved and you will get into heaven..... I say they wernt saved....
I am still trying to figure out this whole salvation thing. I used to believe that. Up until recently. I thought I got saved as a young teen. I realized not to long ago, I was saved shortly before I was baptized in 2001 at a great service at my old church. I opened my eyes and I realized I was not living for Christ. I was living for me.... It has been a long road and I do not see an end yet with my Journey with Christ. I do know at the end I will have a mansion sublime!
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Post by parris on Feb 28, 2007 12:07:37 GMT -5
Bro. Ben,
You wrote, "I know some IFB pastors in the DFW area, I'll try to think of some who do not go to that excess."
Could you let me know who they are?
Hi Ginger,
I think not living for the Lord is a direct result of not repenting for our sins. I discovered this while studying repentance.
God bless you all,
Traci
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Post by Brother Randy on Mar 1, 2007 23:24:12 GMT -5
Speaking of Bro Denny of Charity, have you ever heard him preach anything that was not in line with what we as IFB's believe? So far, I don't think I have heard anything against what I understand the Bible to say, but I am far from listening to him preach on every subject. God bless you brothers, Traci Traci, I only thing that comes to my mind would be on your view of salvation, Bro Denny would not be of the camp of once saved always saved, which most of your Baptist would , but does believe in a real Christian walk and that one can know for sure if they have salvation. Bro Randy
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Post by parris on Mar 1, 2007 23:45:11 GMT -5
Would that be the same as Mennonites believe? I need to go read those posts on Mennonites. If somebody is not sure of their eternal security, that would not cause them to be unsaved....if they trusted in Christ without believing in eternal security, would it?
Thanks, Traci
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Post by Brother Ben on Mar 2, 2007 8:46:43 GMT -5
I would like to make an observation regarding the title of this topic, 'Hyles-Anderson/Repentance. This is not a teaching only in the HAC camp. This is very popular among fundamentalist Baptists across the country. In fact one of the booklets I read on this was published by the Sword of the Lord by the late Curtis Hutson. Though turning from unbelief to belief in salvation is one of the aspects of repentance, turning from my life of self, sin, and pride, is the other. Unfortunately, this has been set aside mistakenly as "works" in salvation, but the Bible says,
Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
In other words, the salvation they received by repenting toward God and placing saving faith in the finished work of Christ should produce works meet, (befitting or worthy,) of salvation.
And in answer to your question, Traci, no, one does not have to believe in "eternal security" in order to be truely saved. I know Bro. Denny personally and have sat in his living room and discussed this issue. They believe that a person must turn to God and place full, repentant, saving faith in the finished, life-changing work of Christ on Calvary. They believe that a saved life is a changed life. Furthermore, they believe that one is only safe if an obedient walk in Christ. They see those who walk in willful, unrepentant disobedience as in danger of placing themselves under the judging hand of God, that is to say, to walk away from the covenant they made with Christ in the first place.
I know this is a hot topic, but for all practical purposes, if a person can live in willful, unrepentant sin, they are in danger of going to hell. The godly throughout church history have all thought this. Some may say, one such as this was never really saved, others may say they are plucked from the vine as unfruitfull and cast into the fire. All I have to say is, we need to pay close attention to our Christian life and take the issue of obedience seriously.
The stand of "unconditional" eternal security is one that has been greatly used of the enemy to allow people to "buy" fire insurance from God and go on in their wicked ways. This person will burn in hell. God is no seller of insurance. He is the holy God of heaven and the Bible means every bit of the following verse:
Hbr 12:14 Follow peace with all [men], and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
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Post by joanneshr on Mar 2, 2007 12:24:45 GMT -5
Brother Ben - just letting you know I appreciated what you said in your last post.
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Post by George on Mar 2, 2007 21:02:43 GMT -5
Indeed Brother Ben, this can and has been a rather difficult subject. Some just do not believe in the eternal security of the believer even though it is plainly spelled out over and over again in the Bible. I took a seminary course that included a lot of teaching on eternal security. It is a Biblical Truth.
However we get into the question of works as you mentioned. I do not believe in works salvation in any way shape or form. Again the Bible clearly teaches this is not truth. However as spelled out in the Book of James the works in a person's life show their faith. There is a very distinct separation between faith and salvation. Faith is a necessary part of salvation in that we must have faith God can do something for us we cannot achieve in any other way.
The apostle Paul teaches in Galatians 5:19-21 a way that we can discern whether or not a person is saved. Again that is a subject that is taboo in a lot of circles but is plainly spelled out in the Bible. Paul writes that those who claim to be saved and yet continue to live carnal, unrighteous loves are not saved. Look at the last clause of Galatians 5:21: "Shall not inherit the kingdom of God." That is pretty specific. The apostle wrote, as directed by the Holy Spirit of God, that those who practice such things as listed in Galatians 5:19-21 and Romans 1:29-31 are clearly not saved no matter what they say.
(Jas 2:24) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Works are a necessary and vital part of the process of justification. They follow after receiving the saving grace of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. How can we tell if a man (or woman) is truly saved? Again that answer is found in the pages of God's Holy Word.
(2Co 5:17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2Co 5:18) And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
If a person is in Christ, (saved) old things are passed away. He or she is a new creature. ALL things are become new. And...ALL things are of God. Does that mean we will not sin again? No way! It does mean that the old thing of holding on to our sin and not having a way to deal with the guilt and frustration are done away with by our knowledge of Christ Jesus. The is an emphasis of what Paul writes in Galatians and Romans that shows if a person is saved they will not practice certain things as a lifestyle. If they do make a mistake and fall into sin the urging of the Holy Spirit will cause us to want to get right with God as soon as we can.
There is nowhere in the Bible it tells us a person can lose their salvation. There are ways shown in the Bible to discern if a person is truly saved. Jesus addressed it Himself:
(Luk 6:46) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
If we are to call Jesus Lord, we are to do the very best we can to do the things He says and not continue to live in carnality.
In Christ, George
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Post by parris on Mar 2, 2007 22:37:51 GMT -5
Thank you all for taking the time to post your replies. I very much enjoyed reading them. They pretty well summarize what I have learned through my personal studies in the past few weeks.
I have now separated from my church. My pastor had made some other disturbing comments to me. He said that I (as a layman) should read the Bible much more than study it. He said that the verse saying to "study to show thyself approved" applies to pastors because it was written to church leaders, and about 2 verses past that it addresses it to men of God (in his opinion, pastors). Sounds like the Catholic church doesn't it?
I figure that if it applies only to men of God, that means godly men (saved men) because they are to be the spiritual leaders of the home. But since I am a single parent, I have to be the spiritual leader of the home, so I should be studying it. Agree?
I am not happy about having to find a new church. There are very few IFBs around here that preach the Bible, if any. We have been to a few where most of the teenage girls are wearing blue jeans. This is a sure sign that they are not preaching anything that might offend people. The easy route would be to stay in my church, but it would not be right.
Please pray that my children and I will find a church that practices the will of God.
Thanks so much Brothers and Sisters,
Traci
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Post by jeff on Mar 2, 2007 23:26:41 GMT -5
Sounds like you made the right move on leaving your church. It's tough to be "in the market" (for lack of a better word) for a new church. We've been there many times over the years. It took a lot of looking and visiting, and finally God just dropped us right in where we are today. Keeping you in my prayers, Traci
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