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Post by nightingale on Mar 20, 2007 0:55:34 GMT -5
Dear Brothers...I have a question??
For those who don't know...I belong to a GARBC Church.
A dear brother/Sister of mine have decided to leave the church after many years of service and fellowship at our church
They can no longer sit under our Pastor beliefs in Calvinism
I myself did not know how strong he was on the subject until I was told he made a statement in church that went like this....
"If you don't believe the Calvin way than you are a heritic!"
I know this subject has been talked about before on here, so if anyone can pull the link up or quote some verses that I may do some studying on my own, I would greatly appreciate it
As always....Thank you and May we all find ways to bring honor and glory to our Lord daily! Love Sis Debbie
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Post by Brother Ben on Mar 20, 2007 10:52:28 GMT -5
I wish I could give the history of our doctrines in 20 words or less. If we could get the scope of how our doctrines were formed, we would be far better equipped to love and appreciate our brethren that are calvinistic, arminian, and all points in between.
In the early centuries of the church a early writer who was in the Catholic line named Augustine became quite the apologist. His method of attacking a false teaching was to go to the extreme opposite in order to set the false teaching us as "utter heresy."
In opposing a false teaching named Pelagius he set the ground work for what Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin would later dust off, update, and call, Reformed Theology. Pelagius, in error, saw man as basically good and all he needed to do was to avail himself to the grace of God and become spiritually well again. This is classic works salvation, and needed to be refuted.
Instead of going to him as a brother, Augustine went to war. Teaching that man is not only born in sin, he said man is incapable of making any spiritual steps toward God and that salvation was determined by a fate maintained by God, the basis for eternal election. A theological standard had been set so that all who opposed could be deemed, "heretic," and thusly be persecuted.
Though the Catholic church did not particularly carry on teaching his doctrine, it was there and the Reformers found it and came out of the error of Catholicism, only to produce a new "way." This way became the "only" way to them and they too began to persecute heretics and burn them at the stake.
I am all for theology, it is a great study, but when we exalt it to become the end, instead of Christ and living for Him being the end, we do err not knowing the truth. I believe we have greater light than the early church had, but having that light, we should learn to use it for instruction in righteousness.
Here is some doctrine:
1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
If your doctrine does not lead you to godliness, then you had better examing your salvation, or your doctrine. If one can enjoy the things of this world, movies, worldly music, etc., ad nausium, then his doctrine is doing him no good. The doctrine of Calvinism teaches practical holness. John Gill, a calvinist, said the following:
"holiness... and there is a perfection of it in Christ; and it is to be followed after, by going to Christ for more grace, and exercising faith upon him, as our sanctification; and by eager desires that the Spirit of God would sanctify us more and more, and enable us, by his grace and strength, to walk in the way of holiness, till we get safe to heaven:
I am a proponent of the doctrine of the grace of God, but I have seen men both Calvinistic and Arminian live uncareful lives that disgrace the doctrine they espouse. Christ gave doctrine that was "according to godliness" and we should remember that holiness is far more important to the Lord then being, "gun barrel straint" (and twice as empty!)
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Post by nightingale on Mar 26, 2007 18:11:59 GMT -5
Ok, I need more I have a problem with God predestinating those he has chose to save and those he chose to go to hell If calvinisim is true doctrine than man does not have a free will God chose those He is going to save and those He will send to Hell, right? I have a problem believing in this Help!! Sis Debbie
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Post by Brother Ben on Mar 27, 2007 11:15:08 GMT -5
Yes, according to the doctrine of election according to predestination, those elected to go to heaven are saved. However, some don't like to talk much about what is sometimes called double predestination and that is to say, those not elected to heaven, are elected to hell, it only makes sense (according to that school of thought.)
Once again, these are doctrines that were formulated 1470 years after the origin of the church and her doctrines. You are not the only one who has a problem with it.
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Post by nightingale on May 6, 2007 11:34:53 GMT -5
Brother Ben... I am so excited, today after church service I am meeting with a couple that left our church because they could not swallow the Pastor's preaching on calvinism. We are going to study together on this subject and clarify in my own heart and mind any misgivings I have on the topic. I have trouble with the doctrine that Calvinism represents, but I want to be grounded in it with God's word so I can not be misled again. I will let you know how it went Blessings Sis Debbie
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Post by nightingale on May 15, 2007 1:35:39 GMT -5
Well, I met with a brother and sister in Chirst to talk about the subject "Calvinism" After the meeting I am even more convinced that I have been being led astray with this type of doctrine. I really never gave it much thought until our Pastor was beating the pulpit with it (He is a hyper-calvinist) I have discovered. My dear son-in-law (a new babe in the Lord) told me that he had a nightmare concerning this subject on election. I will spare you the details but it was quite distrubing. My daughter and him are doing a study on it and more than likely will be searching for a new church. I myself will be moving soon to the opposite side of the state and will no longer have to make that agonizing decision on leaving people you have come to love because you differ with the Pastor's teaching. There is so much more to this story but I will leave it in the Lord's hands and pray Blessings Sis Debbie
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Post by brobob on May 15, 2007 13:54:44 GMT -5
Sister Debbie, God bless on your move and as you seek a new place of service in that community.
This Calvinism debate is one of the most unecessary ones in our age. I went to a southern baptist college and seminary where some who took the side of hyper-calvinism assumed all others were heretics at the very least, and possibly unsaved. It is tragic that someone would choose to focus so much on the minors and argue over this when people are dying and going to hell all around us.
While i do agree with some of Calvin's theological leanings (and even some of the "points"), he is by no means the Savior and the Lord of the church who gave His life for Her.
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Post by rockyshaun on Nov 30, 2007 1:33:03 GMT -5
I too have been struggling with this issue as of late. With Romans 9, Ephesians 1, the Gospel of John, Amos 3:6 and Isaiah 45 there is much evidence for predistanation. We cannot deny these scriptures. Then you have Tim, Peter, Ezek, and Duet. I don't know how God can elect-predestinate a few, and at the same time "have all men to be saved". Only God can reconcile 2 paradoxical truths in Himself. To deny either side is wrong in my opinion.
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Post by Brother Ben on Nov 30, 2007 8:35:43 GMT -5
Rocky, ONLY God CAN reconcile both sides. I have a friend who told me anyone who denies either has lopsided theology. I think that is a good answer. Some of you may have heard this before, I think it is pretty good. Salvation is like a bunch of people marching down a hallway. There is a door with a sign over it that says, "Whosoever will may come." Some go in, others don't. On the inside of the door is a sign that says, "Elect from the foundation of the world." So which is it? It is both, only God can balance them and that needs to be good enough. Spurgeon a professed Calvinsit said, "Some make too much of election, if you see that you are a lost sinner in need of a Saviour, run to Jesus." That too, is a good answer.
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Post by anabean on Nov 30, 2007 10:13:54 GMT -5
Good answer Ben. The Bible does teach a form of predestination, but a Bible answer is always best. If someone asks "what must I do to be saved"....I can reply like the apostles have "believe, repent, etc"....I do not have to go into a spill on election. Plus Romans 9 is not the end of the "election" story...ready Romans 11:32.....it gives what looks like to me a final thought. I think Romans 9 asks questions and does not make statements....I think the questions are to show us that God is supreme. Paul could have asked "what if God was willing to destroy the universe in 3 seconds"?
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kscarle
Member
Philippians 4:4, Romans 12:1, John 14:15
Posts: 97
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Post by kscarle on Nov 30, 2007 12:26:37 GMT -5
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:13
2Pe 3:9 "The Lord is not slack, concerning his promise,as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
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Post by anabean on Nov 30, 2007 12:52:21 GMT -5
Amen KSCARLE I believe Freewill exists as it says in the Bible. EZRA 7:13 However, I believe that no man comes unto the Father unless God draws the man/woman as no man seeks after God. I believe man has free will...but I believe it is limited. I cannot jump to the moon. I can put my kids in a playpen and give them toys...they can only do what is confined in the playpen....they have free will to pick up the duck or the pig toy....but they cannot get the dog toy outside the pen. This is limited freewill. All I know is....Jesus calls....and we need to believe, and if we believe truly...then repentance WILL follow.
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Post by Brother Ben on Nov 30, 2007 15:34:27 GMT -5
Dr. Charles Stanley said, "The only Person with absolute free will is God."
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Post by anabean on Dec 3, 2007 10:11:49 GMT -5
Amen Ben. Thats the truth.
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