just when you think you have goog fellowship...

[MrsDeweySmith]

...you wake up and see the thorns in the bush, so to speak.
I had not, honestly, looked much into a particular group I have visited online many times. It has been a wonderful blessing to me from a fellowship stand-point and honestly, that was all I saw.

Well, now I see the depth of the group. Here is a recent article thrown in the mix, due to someone mentioning some correspondence Bible study she went through and enjoyed. It was noted that one of the beliefs of that study group was eternal security...someone right away countered that was a false teaching, and then this article came through (along with one on Hebrews 6....funny how that book and chapter keep coming up in my life...what am I supposed to learn from that?)

You have all heard this -- I know there are many articles in the group here concerning this as well. I guess it just shows that I need to be more discerning in my fellowship and discussions at times.

Sister Deanna

>> Sermon: Unconditional Eternal Security & Its Related Errors

By Merle Ruth

As Christians, part of our calling is to contend for the faith which was
once for all delivered to the saints. But there's a wrong way, and a right
way, to do this. The right way is to contend for the faith in a
non-contentious way. Though I may fail, my purpose is to do it that way on
this occasion.

Everyone craves security. God made us that way. There are many reflections
of this fact in life today. Think of all the attention that is given to
national security, financial security, old age security. Generally,
however, spiritual security gets a back seat. But in religious circles,
this also is recognized. Although that is good, something is happening in
today's religious world that is not good. People who claim to speak for God
are offering to professed Christians an unconditional eternal security.
Hopefully by the time I get through, you will understand why we view this as
a dangerous teaching. My sermon title is rather long: "Unconditional
Eternal Security AND its Related Errors." I've chosen to word it that way
because it is hard to isolate this teaching from the package to which it
belongs.

From here I'm moving to a premise that is widely acceptable. I'm stating it
this way: The security of a man's soul for time and eternity depends on
whether or not he is in good standing with the Lord. I think this would be
acceptable to people on both sides of the issue. Whether a man's theology
leans toward Armenianism, or whether it leans toward Calvinism -- I think
he would view that as an acceptable statement. The security of a man's soul
for time and eternity depends on whether or not he is in good standing with
God. There would be, however, a difference of opinion as to what is
required of US in order to remain in good standing with God.

Next I'm going to pose this question: Can I KNOW how I stand with God? If
I'm in good standing with God, can I know it? If I'm safe and secure in
Christ, can I know it? In relation to this, there are two extremes. At the
one extreme are those who contend that, here and now, one cannot know with
certainty his actual standing with God. There are, I believe, some
good-living Christians in this category. For one reason or another, they
are not real sure of their acceptance with God. Consequently, they lack
assurance of salvation. At the other extreme, are those who are living in
almost the same identical way as the unconverted, but because of a one-time
decision for Christ, somewhere in their past, they claim to be a child of
God with NO POSSIBILITY of ever being lost. As I see it, those are the two
extremes. Opposite extremes. Neither one is Biblical, but in my opinion,
the second is the more dangerous because it breeds spiritual carelessness.

It appears to me as though the first group is overlooking 1 John 5:13. That
verse reads as follows: "These things have I written unto you that believe
on the name of the Son of God, that ye may know that ye have eternal life."
This entire epistle was written for the express purpose that persons who are
saved might have a proper sense of security. We have a built-in need for
knowing that God accepts us and, praise His name, He meets that need when we
meet His condition.

The second group I've described appears to be overlooking something, too.
They're overlooking passages like this one: Matthew 7:21-22, "Not everyone
that sayeth unto me 'Lord, Lord' shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but
he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say unto
me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name, and in thy
name have cast out devils, and in thy name have done many wonderful works?'"
On this basis, we must conclude that many are entertaining a false sense of
security. The unconditional eternal security teaching does that. It
promotes a false sense of security. People are made to feel as though they
are in good standing with God when, according to the Bible, they are not in
good standing with the Lord.

Why do some people have this false sense of security? The reasons are
numerous. Jesus related to a people who felt secure because of who they
were. Jews were the people of God. Really, any member of a highly
privileged group is inclined to feel secure on that basis, and Mennonites
are no exception to that rule. A sacramental-type religion can do the same
thing. Such persons reason this way, "I'm doing all that God requires. I'm
taking communion every Sunday, surely I'm in right standing with God." Some
people claim to have had their old nature eradicated by a second work of
Grace. Along with that would naturally go a feeling of security.

I'm not attempting to be exhaustive. As I already indicated there are
numerous factors that may contribute to a false sense of security. There
is, however, one that I am now going to enlarge upon because, in my opinion,
it is perhaps the major source for this kind of deception: namely Calvinism.


This system of theology gets its name from the man responsible for its
formulation: John Calvin. Calvin was a contemporary of the early
Anabaptists. He became influential as a protestant reformer while living in
the city of Geneva, Switzerland. Around the year 1536, Calvin put his
theological views into writing in what has become known as "The Institutes
of Christian Religion", and those volumes are still being published. It is
now recognized that some of what we would call "Calvin's erroneous beliefs"
were actually borrowed from Augustine, an influential fourth-century Bishop
who helped to pave the way for Catholicism. Many European people, during
the Reformation period and following, preferred Calvinism over Catholicism,
and so Calvinism spread from Geneva to France, from France to Holland, from
Holland to England. There, in England, the Calvinists became known as
Puritans. In Scotland, they became known as Presbyterians. In America
today, the Presbyterians and the "Reformed" churches would be strongholds of
Calvinism. But it's by no means limited to these groups. Many Baptists and
so-called Fundamentalists are strongly Calvinistic.

In the field of theology, the contrast to Calvinism is Armenianism, and this
gets its name from Jacobus Armenius, a Netherlands theologian who
disassociated himself from Calvin, became quite influential in opposing
those elements of Calvinistic teaching that he viewed as being erroneous.
Generally, people who are non-Calvinistic have the Armenian label pinned
upon them, and we are no exception to that rule. However, on the question
of the believer's security, it was not Jacobus Armenius' influence, but
independent Bible study that led our Anabaptist forefathers to adopt the
stance they have adopted.

In order for this message to be true to its title, I will need to devote a
part of it to a description of the Calvinistic package. For some of you
this might be a review of what you already know, perhaps you know it better
than I do, I beg your forebearance if that should be the case. Before I
get started, I want to also make this acknowledgement: It has been
demonstrated repeatedly that one can become a devout Christian in a
Calvinistic setting. But, in my opinion, a non-Calvinistic setting is a lot
more conducive to holy living. The reasons for this opinion will soon
become obvious.

Historically, Calvinism has consisted of five points. One means of
remembering these five points is to visualize them as forming an acrostic
based on the name of a very common flower, namely the TULIP. Each letter of
the word TULIP begins the spelling of one of these five points:

The T stands for: Total depravity.

The U stands for: Unconditional election.

The L stands for: Limited atonement.

The I, for: Irresistible grace.

And the P, for: Perseverance of the saints.

Now, this last point, "perseverance of the saints", is simply another label
for the eternal security of the unconditional type. Now, generally
speaking, there has been a de-emphasizing of the first four points of
Calvinism. They don't have the popular appeal that point number five has.
But, because the five points are so inter-related, points one through four
continue to serve as the foundation for point number five. They are like
the unseen part of an iceberg, points one through four.

I will warn you, as you well know, that the Calvinistic theologians are not
at all apologetic. They represent themselves as the very standard of
orthodox Christianity. It can be very, very persuasive. If you would go to
the widely circulated Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary, a volume to
which many writers have contributed, if you would read there the article on
"The Doctrine of Election", you'd quickly come upon typical Calvinistic
teaching. The writer of that article puts it this way: "A man is not
elected because he is going to believe, he believes because he is elected."
That article makes the divine act of election an arbitrary, non-conditional
act. It repudiates our claim that election was based on God's foreknowledge
of an individual's favorable response to the divine call. In that article,
favorable responses on the human level are not represented as a condition
for election, but as an inevitable consequence of God's election. And this
is the heart of Calvinism. God supposedly chose, arbitrarily, out of the
mass of humanity, certain ones whom He determined to save, irrespective of
ANYTHING that He foresaw in them. Others he excluded. Christ supposedly died
for ONLY this number: those whom God arbitrarily, unconditionally chose to
be saved. Consequently, a non-elect person will inevitably be lost, even
though he dies while he is still an infant. The elect person, like everyone
else, is supposedly so totally depraved, that he would be incapable of
responding to God's call, so God comes to this non-responding person, and
with irresistible grace, saves him. Being one of the elect, this person
will inevitably make it through to heaven regardless of how he lives.

A Calvinist once told a non-Calvinist, "Your God is a ________. (sorry, I
can't tell what he said here.) When my God sets out to save a man, He SAVES
him." They glory in that view of God. Their view of God's operating
supposedly magnifies the power of God's sovereign grace. But for other
people, their view of God's way of operating creates a lot of problems.

Well, having looked at the heart of Calvinism, we are ready now for some of
the other features of Calvinism. Upon receiving eternal life, you supposedly
become eternally secure because that life is eternal--eternal in
duration--and they say it cannot be lost. They claim that we dare not view
believing and repenting as conditions for salvation, because that makes
those acts - believing and repenting-that makes those acts meritorious, and
puts salvation on a works basis. They will try to make you believe that
there could be no sense of security for believers if losing out, becoming
eternally lost, was a possibility. According to their doctrine, no matter
how much he may sin, the elect person will never fall into disfavor with
God. Why not? Because the Calvinist looks at it this way: God won't ever
punish me for he has already punished my substitute. Supposedly, God
doesn't notice the sins of the elect Christian because he is said to be
covered over with the robe of Christ's righteousness. Along with that, they
generally teach that, in addition to your past sins, God has already
pre-forgiven all your future sins. They claim that a lot of those people
whom we would view as having backslidden, they would claim they never really
were Christians in the first place. Although that may, in some cases be
true, they push that point REAL hard because backsliding doesn't very well
mesh with their "once saved, always saved" philosophy. Reluctantly, some
will admit that a one-time Christian may backslide, and even die in that
condition. However, they commonly claim that such persons--although they
may lose much--can never lose their salvation, they can never lose their
good standing with God. Supposedly, they still enter heaven as a saint.

Yes, there are variations in beliefs among the Calvinists. Some hold to
only point number five, and they try to disassociate that from the former
four points. There is also among them those who teach that, in some cases,
a backslider may become so wicked, so much a liability to God, that God may
actually shorten his life and take him to heaven prematurely. If God would
indeed operate that way, then it could truly be said, "The more you sin, the
quicker you get to heaven."

Well, that was a hurried review of the teachings and claims of those who
insist that one's title to heaven cannot be lost. But how does all this
square with the Bible? Well, you can make it square if you are selective,
as they are, in their choice of passages. But when you take an
all-inclusive approach to the Bible, you discover some passages with which
it does NOT harmonize. There are passages that THROB with warning, such as 1
Corinthians 10:12, "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed,
lest he fall." Promoters of this doctrine either overlook such passages, or
they water down their meaning.

Let's bring into focus again their "unconditional election" concept, and
their "limited atonement" concept. And let's put alongside those concepts a
passage like Mark 16: 15-16, ".Go ye into all the world and preach the
gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned". Now we put their concepts
alongside of that passage. If Christ died only for a select number, why
then preach the gospel to every creature? The truth of the matter is,
Christ died for ALL. Those exact words, "for all" occur twice in 2
Corinthians 5: 14-15, ".. He died for all." Now, a second question: If
God's election to salvation was made irrespective of any foreseen human
fact, why does this passage represent believing as the condition for being
saved? Why? Because, contrary to their claim, salvation is conditional.
People don't get saved until they respond favorably to God's call. But, in
Calvinistic thinking, man is so depraved, so spiritually dead, that he can't
even respond. Consequently, in their theology, regeneration comes before
believing and repenting. Before he can even respond, God supposedly must
move in and regenerate this sinner so he can respond. The non-Calvinist
views that as a false concept. It robs man of his freedom of choice. It has
God doing FOR man that which man, himself, MUST do with God's assisting
grace. Repeatedly, the Calvinist will say that, "our salvation doesn't
depend on what we do, but on what Christ has done for us". We can accept
that, insofar as it relates to the provision for salvation, but that
statement ignores the fact that in appropriating the provided salvation, man
must have a very active part.

On the day of Pentecost, those who were pricked by Peter's sermon came with
their question, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" Was that treated as a
wrong question? Did Peter tell them, "don't worry, just relax. In God's own
time and way he'll do it all. Really, there's nothing for you to do." NO!
Peter said no such thing. That was not a wrong question. Peter did give
them something to do, "Repent and be baptized." The Bible repeatedly has
God calling upon sinners to act, "Look unto me"; "Seek ye the Lord"; "Save
yourselves"; "Return unto the Lord". In every instance, an act of the will
is needed to trigger the response that God will then enable the person to
make. But an act of the will--God waits upon that act of the will.

Contrary to the Calvinist, we do not view believing and repenting as an
attempt to earn salvation. A thing can be necessary without being
meritorious. The mere act of reaching out for a gift does not make one
worthy of that gift, but you will never get the gift if you do not reach out
for it when it's offered. Contrary to Calvinistic teaching, we believe that
no sinner is saved until he really wants to be. God's saving grace is
offered to all, but it is forced upon no one. Those who stoned Stephen were
allowed the liberty to resist the Spirit of God. They were doing precisely
that. And with few exceptions, they probably continued to do that--they
probably died that way-resisting the Holy Spirit. So, the concept of
irresistible grace is likewise a false doctrine.

Now, possibly I've devoted.. (tape turnover) to the getting saved process.
This subject, the believer's security, is related more directly to the
matter of staying saved. For the Calvinist, staying saved is inevitable.
We disagree, and on Biblical grounds.

In Ezekiel 18, God through his prophet speaks directly to this point.
Ezekiel 18:24, "But when the righteous turneth away from His righteousness,
and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that
the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath
done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in
his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die." Although this is found
in the Old Testament, it appears to be God's uniform way of operating
because we have virtually the same thing in the New Testament in Romans
8:13, and it's addressed to Christians! ". If ye (you, who are already
Christians) .. If ye live after the flesh, ye shall die." And that surely
has in view a spiritual dying. Whether or not you live after the flesh, you
die physically, so it can't mean that. It must mean, it must be talking
about, a loss of spiritual life.

I'm turning now to that familiar parable at the end of Matthew 18. Here is
this king who began to take account of his servants. After discovering that
one owed him a large sum of money, and after that servant begged for mercy,
the king graciously forgave that enormous debt. However, that servant then
went forth, and treated a fellow servant in a very unmerciful way. What
happened? Verse 32. Matthew 18:32, "Then his Lord, after he had called him,
said unto him 'Oh, thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt,
because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on
thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?' And his lord was wroth, and
delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto
him." Now, underscore these words, "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do
also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother
their trespasses." The pardon that had been granted was revoked. Clearly,
that pardon was revoked.

Turn with me now to Colossians chapter 1. Colossians 1, let's begin in verse
21, "And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by
wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through
death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from
the hope of the gospel." Notice that word, "if". "If ye continue in the
faith, grounded and settled, and be not moved away". It plainly shows that
true security is conditional in character.

There are many "ifs" scattered throughout the New Testament. 1 John 1:9,
"If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins."
The condition we meet to become saved is, or must. put it this way: The
condition we meet to become saved must be maintained in order to remain
saved. Most Bible readers are familiar with the "vine and branch" passage,
John 15. A very significant truth emerges from that passage, namely this:
The new life that is received in regeneration is not an independent life. It
is a life that Christ shares with us as we abide in Him. Let's listen to a
verse there in John 15. John 15:6, "If a man abide not in me, he is cast
forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them in to
the fire, and they are burned." I don't think it would be like Jesus to
warn of a danger that is nonexistent. It wouldn't be like Christ to do
that, would it?

When one is baptized as a Christian, he enters into a covenant relationship
with God. Solemn promises are made. Now visualize for a moment a person
who no longer honors the terms of that covenant. On what ground can he
still claim the security of that covenant? In the New Testament, true
security is always associated with present tense, up to date, Christian
experience. In that much-used passage, John 10, this dimension gets
overlooked very often. "My sheep hear my voice and they follow me" and as
they thus believe and follow, they are wonderfully secure. But, ask any
shepherd and I think he will tell you, that now and then a sheep gets lost
because he doesn't do this. It's the sheep nature to wander away.

For our Calvinistic friends, this insistence on security being conditional
creates a problem. They are taught that if there is any possibility of
losing out and being eternally lost, then all ground for assurance is swept
away. Let's take a moment to examine that logic. Consider, for example,
these parallels. It would be possible for me to commit suicide. It's being
done every day. The break-up of our marriage is a possibility. It's
happening every day. But, I'm not disturbed in the least by either of those
possibilities. In the same way, although our security in Christ is
conditional, we can still enjoy a wonderful Christian experience. But what
about their slogans? They sound so convincing, "once a sheep, always a
sheep; once a son, always a son"; "Once you're born, you can't be unborn".
Again, I would urge you to closely examine that logic. If their logic is
correct, then we should be able to add, "once a child of the devil, always a
child of the devil." Wouldn't that be only consistent? If that were true,
then you might as well close the churches and call home the missionaries.

In the second place, their logic breaks down, too, because there does not
exist an exact parallel between the natural realm and the spiritual realm.
We do not choose our physical father, but as we arrive at the age of
accountability and beyond, we do choose our spiritual Father. Furthermore,
one's physical birth occurs without his choice being involved. Is it that
way with a spiritual birth? No. Our will is very much involved in our
second birth. Again, in physical birth, one receives a life independent of
his parents. Your parents die, you live on-because you have a life
independent of them. But, the new life that is received in regeneration is
different. Apart from Christ, we can't maintain that life.

So, let's not be intimidated by the logic of their arguments. Let's stand
firm in the Word of God. As I see it, Calvinistic teaching is dangerous
because it fosters a too-permissive attitude towards sin. Actually, their
teaching removes the most urgent reason for practicing Christian
carefulness. It removes that.

Now, there are those who try to convince their audience that Calvinism and
Armenianism represent nothing more than polarities of truth. And that,
however opposite they may seem to be, both positions lie within the circle
of truth, and that either one can be substantiated as well as the other.
Well, I don't deny that there are polarities of truth, but I also know that
when you move too far to the right or to the left, you get outside the
circle of truth. Although I regret having to do it, I don't apologize for
insinuating that the builders and maintainers of Calvinism have gone too
far. They've gone outside the circle.

Down in Egypt, on the first Passover night, that Israelite behind his
blood-sprinkled door, was secure. But it was a conditional security offered
to him on the condition that--in obedience to God--he stay behind that
blood-spattered door. I'm thankful that that kind of conditional security
is still available.

[benshelpmeet]

Dearest Deanna,

Thank you for this very interesting post. Who are these people? Arminian I know, but are they Church of Christ or Mennonite?

It frustrates me how Mennonites and Charity think if your not Arminian your a Calvanist. Hog Wash! These people are so shallow and condeming.

We believe in both teachings, but not to there fullest extent. Some call us Calvaminian, we just believe the balanced bible teachings. Why does it need a name placed on it? Here is a good name Bible Believer. ;D Sounds good to me.



Well, having looked at the heart of Calvinism, we are ready now for some of
the other features of Calvinism. Upon receiving eternal life, you supposedly
become eternally secure because that life is eternal--eternal in
duration--and they say it cannot be lost. They claim that we dare not view
believing and repenting as conditions for salvation, because that makes
those acts - believing and repenting-that makes those acts meritorious, and
puts salvation on a works basis. They will try to make you believe that

Thats right we are saved by the precious blood of Jesus, He took our place on the cross and died for all our sins. We are bought with a price. We are His. We did not merit His Love or forgiveness, He wooed us to Him through His Holy Spirit, we yeilded, turned from unbelief to belief and recieved His free gift of Salvation. Thus we do believe in believing and repenting. The whole process that takes place in the believers heart at the point of salvation is repenting and believing, it has nothing to do with meriting Gods favor for salvation. We believe their will be fruit in ones life that they are a new creature in Christ.


there could be no sense of security for believers if losing out, becoming
eternally lost, was a possibility. According to their doctrine, no matter
how much he may sin, the elect person will never fall into disfavor with
God.

This is so not true! I can hardly believe people are so decieved and in error. When we sin we displease God we do not loose sonship, but we loose fellowship. We have to repent of our sin and get right with God and back on track then we have that close sweet fellowship we once had.

Why not? Because the Calvinist looks at it this way: God won't ever
punish me for he has already punished my substitute.

Servants are punnished sons are chastened, if your never chastened of the Lord when you sin your not saved (not His son ) Those with eternal life recieve there chastening here on earth. The bible speakes of reward and loss of reward.

Supposedly, God
doesn't notice the sins of the elect Christian because he is said to be
covered over with the robe of Christ's righteousness.

When God see's the redeemed, He see's Christs righteousness, not the unredeemed flesh, that we must walk in this flesh, that we might learn how to become more like Christ, and deny this old flesh.

Along with that, they
generally teach that, in addition to your past sins, God has already
pre-forgiven all your future sins.

Why would he forgive some of our sins and not all. If we sin after salvation, how much sin makes one unsaved? Sin cannot enter heaven, sence we continue to sin after salvation even sins we don't realize, Christ has to cover those sins or we would never be able to enter heaven. The best most righteous Arminian is still a sinner and needs Christ blood to cover their sins continually. Amen! This does not mean we practice sin expecting Gods forgiveness, no... a christian does not want to sin against God. If someone sins without any chastening of the Lord, with no guilt, they should be very careful to make sure they are truely a child of God.

They claim that a lot of those people
whom we would view as having backslidden, they would claim they never really
were Christians in the first place. Although that may, in some cases be
true, they push that point REAL hard because backsliding doesn't very well
mesh with their "once saved, always saved" philosophy.

This is not true we often call someone off track or lukewarm, backslid, we even pray for such. Backslidden does not make one unsaved just not right with God.

Reluctantly, some
will admit that a one-time Christian may backslide, and even die in that
condition. However, they commonly claim that such persons--although they
may lose much--can never lose their salvation, they can never lose their
good standing with God. Supposedly, they still enter heaven as a saint.

This is not true... They cannot loose their sonship but their fellowship is broken. They do not feel that closeness with their Father sort of like when our children are out of sorts with us there is not that sweet closeness.

Yes, there are variations in beliefs among the Calvinists. Some hold to
only point number five, and they try to disassociate that from the former
four points. There is also among them those who teach that, in some cases,
a backslider may become so wicked, so much a liability to God, that God may
actually shorten his life and take him to heaven prematurely.

Yes this is true.

If God would
indeed operate that way, then it could truly be said, "The more you sin, the
quicker you get to heaven."


What a fearful and sad state to be in, loss of reward and the oppisite of ''well done thy good and faithful servant'' When I stand before the Lord I want to be found faithful, and for the Lord to smile and say well done thy good and faithful servant. Amen.

This was a very long post, there is much more to respond to , but I am tired and must go for now. Enough said.

~ sister Darlene ~

[George]

However, they commonly claim that such persons--although they
may lose much--can never lose their salvation, they can never lose their
good standing with God.

That is a problem right there. Salvation has nothing whatever to do with our good standing with God. That is works based Salvation and is not Biblical. It is all too easy to fall from grace with God. We fall from His graces each and every time we sin. But...we cannot loose our Salvation.

In I Corinthians 5 the apostle Paul describes a situation with a man who had committed a grievous sin. Although we do not know the exact nature of the sin it is fairly easy to ferret out from what Paul says. Paul also says the nature of the sin was so heinous it was not even mentioned among the Gentiles. That is pretty bad because the Jews of old thought the Gentiles to be the most terrible, godless people on earth. This sin was so bad they did not even know about it.

(1 Corinthians 5:5) To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

You see there that although this person has committed sin so bad Paul says to deliver him to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, meaning to cut this person loose and let him run with the devil even if he dies, look at the end of the verse. That the spirit may be save in the day of the Lord Jesus! This man committed an unspeakable sin. A sin so bad Paul said to let him run with the devil. BUT... his soul is saved. He does not loose his Salvation.

I am with Sister Darlene on this one. I am a Christian first, foremost and always. Secondly I am an independent, fundamental Baptist because I believe this brand of Baptist to follow the Bible in things of faith and life. I consider myself to be in the category of Bible-believing if one has to assign categories. These other things, Calvinism and such like are all products of the wisdom of men. The Bible says such wisdom is void. It is worthless.

Yours in Christ,
George

[bereanman]

I agree Bro. George. I have a very good friend who is Calvinist in his leanings. We debate it from time to time, in a loving way, for we love each other very much. Sometimes I agree with his points and then I'll contrast from the other side using Scripture.

Once he said to me, "What are you then, Calvinist or Arminian?" I said, "I'm a Berean." ;D

[Brother Ben]

Merle Ruth Eby's closing remark:

Down in Egypt, on the first Passover night, that Israelite behind his
blood-sprinkled door, was secure. But it was a conditional security offered
to him on the condition that--in obedience to God--he stay behind that
blood-spattered door. I'm thankful that that kind of conditional security
is still available.

Rom 3:25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

I'll stop there. The difference between Ruth Merle's depiction of blood and the blood of the New Covenant is he/she should have studied it out and came to the conclusion in the "New" Testament. Those who struck the doorposts with blood that night were not safe because they "stayed in the house," but because they trusted the command of God by "faith."

Heb 11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

Bro. Ben

I'll post more later

[blessed]

Thank you for discussion on this topic. I have some questions:

Galations 4:5-11 Paul refers to the "turning again to beggarly elements" and he is "afraid of you lest [he] bestowed labor in vain.

To labor in vain is fruitless. Paul has already referred to them as brethren indicating these are the saved, but he warns them against turning away.

Heb 2:1 also cautions us not to let the things wich we have heard slip.

Heb 12:15 "Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; 16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright."

Esau was able to sell his birthright though he was a child of Abraham. The verse also refers to believers gaurding against being defiled. I do not believe the defiled or the sellers of their birthright will be in Heaven.

Romans 11 speaks of the branch that was cut off to graft the new in and warns against being proud and negligent for if He spared not the original He likewise will not spare the new.

The blood of Christ covers our sin. It does more than just cover: it is like the chemical reaction between sodium which is a deadly poison and chloride also deadly but together making salt. The new substance is not even recognizable from the old. But this new life important substance can be rendered usesless if it is kept wet. It will lose its saltiness. Then it will be trampled underfoot.

John 15 speaks of branches being cast into the fire simply because they weren't fruitfull. If we are not fruitfull, why wouldn't God also cast us?

What about the servant who was ordered to be cast into outer darkness. He was after all called a servant.?

[George]

John 15 speaks of branches being cast into the fire simply because they weren't fruitfull. If we are not fruitfull, why wouldn't God also cast us?

He not only would, He can and He does. I Corinthians addresses this very question rather well.

(1 Corinthians 3:11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

(1 Corinthians 3:12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

(1 Corinthians 3:13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

(1 Corinthians 3:14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

(1 Corinthians 3:15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Let us take a rather quick look at those verses and what they actually tell us. First of all we see reference to the Foundation. The Foundation is our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. Bear in mind that the books of I and II Corinthians were written to saved persons; Christians. It says the foundation has already been laid because of the fact they are Christians.

These verses say that our work, the way we conduct our lives, will be tried, "and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is." Meaning the things we do in our lives will be examined and sorted out for purification as if by fire. We must remember that fire was used as a means of purifying the precious metals mentioned in these verses. The metal smiths heated up the ores and scooped off the dross (impurities.) Then they heated them again and scooped again and did it again and again until the work that remained was as pure as could be. That is the reason for the comparison of the things we do in our life being purified by the fire.

It further says that if the things we build on that Foundation are meager, not strong, made of materials which can be destroyed by the fire they will be destroyed. But...we see that if the things we lay on the Foundation are as precious metals and gem stones the fire will make them better by purifying them.

Then we have to look at the bottom line of this passage of Scripture. "but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."
You can see that even if the works we perform are of the flimsy and not stable or precious kind and they are destroyed by the fire we shall be saved. That is a promise. Shall is the imperative. It has a much stronger meaning than the word "will." We, meaning our souls, shall be saved, yet so as by fire, meaning that what is saved will be purified. The dross will have been scooped away.

How can that be? the answer to that is in I John 1:9:

(1 John 1:9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Please note the word translated as "cleanse" in the English language also means "purify" in the Greek. When we confess our sins God cleanses or purifies us of ALL unrighteousness. We must appear completely free of sin in order to reach the Kingdom of Heaven. God cannot even see us in our sinful bodies. Praise His Name that He sent His Son so that we can undergo the purification we need by confessing our sins so that we can be heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ.

I pray that little exposition will help to clear up some of the question and has not served to muddy the waters for you.

Yours in Christ,
George

[MrsDeweySmith]

Sister Darlene, they are of the Mennonite. The older man who sort of 'oversees' teh doctrinal discussions on the group is Richard Mummau.
I ended up there simply as a 'keeper at home' group search.

Sister Deanna

[Brother Ben]

Posted by blessed on Oct 28, 2005, 5:11pm

Heb 2:1 also cautions us not to let the things wich we have heard slip.

Heb 12:15 "Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; 16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright."

Esau was able to sell his birthright though he was a child of Abraham. The verse also refers to believers gaurding against being defiled. I do not believe the defiled or the sellers of their birthright will be in Heaven.

As to the first reference:
Hbr 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let [them] slip.

To properly understand Hebrews you must let this letter be to whom it was addressed, the Hebrews. This letter is not a N.T. church epistle, but a treatise to the Hebrews who are either, lost and ignorant, lost and knowledgable (like a scribe, Pharisee, or Saducee,) and later finally to the Hebrew Christians. If one keeps these groups in mind, there will be no problem understanding this book and it's allusions to "turning away" from the faith. Calvinists and Arminians both like to claim the book of Hebrews as "their own." This is sometimes a grossly misinterpreted book.

Take for example this warning to the Hebrews who have not yet embraced eternal salvation:

Hbr 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
This verse tells clearly how the just shall live, based on their faith and all of it's fruit, one of which would be the Bible phrase, eternal life. If any man draw back from grasping the prize, actual salvation by faith, God will have no pleasure in him.

The following verse says:
Hbr 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
The Hebrews in this verse, including the apostle Paul, are confident of their salvation and declare this statement boldly. Note: believing is what saves their souls, not their good works.

We have too long made excuses for the sad state of American Christianity and many turn to Arminianism to give God the hammer he needs to punish the rotten apples we call "those who have fallen from salvation." Why don't we get real honest and admit that in may "Christian" groups the gospel has been watered down so much that many people are just not saved! Yes, an actually saved person can and sometimes do fall into sin, but if and I say if they are actually "saved" they will either repent, or God will deal with them in accordance to scripture:
1Cr 5:1 It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

1Cr 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

1Cr 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, [concerning] him that hath so done this deed,

1Cr 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Cr 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Did you get that? The soul of one fallen to such depths of depravity can actually be saved in the day of the Lord. This is a sad way to enter Heaven, but that is between God and man.

Secondly, Esau is a picture of one of these very Hebrews who have the birthright to enter right into the new covenant made by the blood of Jesus Christ, but they sold their birthright and Christ annointed a Gentile Bride to carry the gospel to the rest of the world, how sad, but how happy for us.

They Hebrews have seen "the blood" throughout their history, but were so far from God when Christ came, they didn't see, "...the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world," as John the Baptists plainly told them.

One of the likenesses Arminians have to to bear is to those very Jews! I know of many who have entered into a covenant through baptism, just like the church of Christ, and are trying to obey their way right into Heaven...they'll never see Her doors. Jesus told Nicodemus, you must be born again! Born from above, born with a eternal quality and quantity.

Salvation, real salvation, saves! I was a lost drug using, rock-n-rolling, sin embracing wicked man. God saved me and He is still saving (sanctifying) me, just as His word said he would.

Let the book of Hebrews be for who it is addressed...the Hebrews. Yes, there are great truthes for the N.T. Christian to draw from, but when you get into to the verses dealing with falling short, realize it is not falling short of Heaven, but for those who fell short of embracing Jesus Christ, the better covenant, and His finished work on Calvary! It is finished!

2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Jud 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

If He isn't able to keep, the Bible is lying, ouch!

By the way...He is able!

Bro. Ben

[George]

Brother Ben, thank you for that exposition and reminder. I have found the book of Hebrews to be often misused by groups professing the doctrine of men. As you said, it is imperative one keep in mind who this book was addressed to, There are many things in Hebrews we can use in our personal lives but it was actually directed at unsaved Jews.

Since the day I was saved I struggled with the book of Hebrews. It was literally Greek to me. No pun intended. I just could not understand it.

One Saturday afternoon I was fixing to start my bible reading. The Holy Spirit told me to open my Bible to Hebrews. Of course me being me I told Him, no! I told the Holy Spirit of God I was going to read in Romans. I am extremely fortunate nothing really untoward happened to me that day. The next day after morning Church services I set out to read my Bible again. Once more I got the prompt to read Hebrews. Not being one to want to have too many arguments with the Lord I opened my Bible to the book of Hebrews.

Brother Ben, the words literally jumped off the page at me! it was made clear to me as never before. Hebrews went form being completely not understandable to me, to being one of my favorite books in the Bible. Admittedly I have only a very basic understanding of it but am learning.

You would think that after such an experience the next time the Holy Spirit told me to do something I would heed it. Unfortunately George is George and still wants to argue or ignore at times. Of course each and every time I participate in such a thing there is no question as to who wins.

Yours in Christ,
George

[Andrea]

One of the verses in Hebrews that often is thrown up to me by people who say you can lose your salvation is Hebrews 10:26. I was wondering if anyone could explain this verse to me.. Thanks so much.. ..

[Brother Ben]

Based on the former observations on Hebrews consider the following thoughts:

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (KJV)

Heb 10:26 expanded: For if we [Jews] sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth [that Jesus Christ is new and living way that we can have bold access unto the throne of grace,] there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins [done by Earthly priests seeing as the Great High Priest, Jesus Christ, has made sacrifice, once for all and there is no other sacrifice that will please God for salvation.]

Again, those who wrestle the scripture into their corner, i.e., Calvinists and Arminians, always go about looking for verses that "prove" that one is elect according to predestination, or able to loose their salvation.

Simple lesson here:
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1. The gift of God is what? Eternal life
2. Is eternal a quality or a quantity? It is a quantity.
3. If I can lose my salvation, was it eternal to start with or temporal based on "my" performance? If I can lose it, it was temporal based on conditions of performance.

[George]

I believe there are two very basic and extremely important aspects to keep in mind when considering the book of Hebrews. The first is who it was written to. It was written, quite obviously, to Hebrews and specifically to unsaved Jews. Secondly I believe we need find the theme of the book of Hebrews. The theme appears to be centered on the fact that Jesus Christ is the Messiah.

The Jews knew that the Messiah was coming. However they rejected our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ and were still searching and waiting for the Messiah. The Jews of today are still searching and waiting for the Messiah to come.

Knowing those things it is much easier to understand what Hebrews 10:26 is all about. Let us dissect and define it.

(Hebrews 10:26) For if we sin willfully, (knowingly commit sin without regard to the consequences,) after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, (the knowledge of the truth being that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, [recall that Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth...] there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (the sacrifice has already been made. Jesus Christ is that sacrifice and it is useless to continue to look for the Saviour and Forgiver of sin because He has already come and the sacrifice has been made.)

This verse has absolutely nothing to do with a saved and born again Christian losing their salvation. Nothing.

One of the easiest ways to create and perpetuate false doctrine is to take verses out of context and attempt to have them say something they do not. In a lot of cases the context may be a few verses or perhaps even a chapter. In this case the context is AT LEAST the chapter and probably the entire book of Hebrews.

I hope this helps to clarify the matter somewhat for you.

Yours in Christ,
George

[Andrea]

Thank you so much for the replies. Both of them have been very helpful to me. I have known that the book of Hebrews was written to the Jews, but have never really put two and two together.. it is a typical case of pulling a verse out of context.. I knew that, but didn't really know or consider myself what the exact context was. This has really put the book of Hebrews into a whole new light for me. It's very exciting to learn something new each day from God's Word. Thanks again..

[Brother Ben]

I must also say that there are those on the strong side of dispensationalism who say that the books of Hebrews, James, and I and II Peter are only to the Hebrews and that they do not apply to the Christian at all. That, is too much. A balanced perspective will keep one out of doctrinal error. I heard a brother once explaining how groups get off course, he said it was an issue of math. Math? Yes, they either add something to scripture, take something away from scripture, multiply, and make too much of a certain scripture, or wrongly divide the scripture. I thought that was pretty good. Lord, help us to watch our Bible math!

On a further note, I would like to make this observation also. Note this quote from the original post:

Many Baptists and so-called Fundamentalists are strongly Calvinistic.
In the field of theology, the contrast to Calvinism is Armenianism

Here we have two perspectives, A. Frying Pan, and B. Fire. Now, I am not implying that you will go to Hell for being either Calvinist or Arminian. Salvation is through a Person, Jesus Christ. If one comes humbly to the Christ of the Bible and asks Him in His mercy to save them...their saved! You don't have to be a doctrinal scholar to GET saved. However, once saved, people are so often, as in this case, boxed into one "camp" or the other. Why, praytell, can't we be just a plain and simple Bible believer. Neither A, Arminian, or C, Calvinist, but instead, B, Bible believer! As one brother put it to me once to be otherwise is to have lop-sided theology.

Another error one man told me was, good doctrine produced good living. Though good doctrince can get one straightened out and help them to see what "good living" really is in the eyes of God, good living can also be produced by religious dogma. In my town there is a Wal-Mart (home to much of my pay check there is a guy there who is a Mormon. He is exemplary of what a good Christian should act like. He has strong moral convictions, he is a family man, he is kind, polite, and a Christian gentleman, but he is a Mormon. He is living good, but the system of beliefs he has are based on error. Just because one groups has better children, or better marriages, it doesn't make them right in doctrine.

I was listening to a tape set once by a Mennonite minister and he said, correctly, that he had to ask the Lord to take the filters off of his eyes so that he would read the Bible AS IT IS. He said that his preconceived notions from his conservative Mennonite upbringing kept him from truly understanding the heart of some Biblical issues. That is good counsel. We need to ask God to help us to, instead of being, in our case, good Baptists, or good Mennonites, or good Reformed beleivers, to be good Christians! Those who hold the word of God open and in truth. I will admit, I have changed some things since I first got saved. This is called growth. Peter said: "But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen." (II Peter 3:18) If we insist on staying locked into a group for the groups sake, we may stay locked into some error along with it. No group is perfect and all are wrong somewhere, but we need to let the Bible be the final authority and not dogma.


Bro. Ben