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Post by rachel4 on Jun 5, 2012 14:41:16 GMT -5
Alright, so maybe I"m going to be the fly in the ointment here, but how would one say that we need an army, a police force for protection, and that God ordained having them, but then say one won't be a part of those things? Can it be wrong to be part of something God has ordered into society?
Also, isn't it somewhat hypocritical for us, as Christians, to enjoy the benefits of living in a society where we are protected from those who would over-run our country (radical Islamists, for example) and persecute us to then say that those who are protecting us (the military, for example) are in the wrong and we don't support them?
I am not trying to be argumentative, rather I am trying to work through something in my mind that has been bothering me for months. I do see the tension between these things and the Scriptural commands of "thou shalt not kill". Thank you to everyone who has posted thus far, I am learning a lot from all the other posters.
Sister Rachel
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Post by Brother Ben on Jun 6, 2012 9:10:55 GMT -5
Here is where you are missing the point. You said:
There are many things God "allows" that are "ordered" that are NOT for the Believer. God is the Sovereign of the Universe, naturally he is going to "order" things, that is his nature. This does not mean we should be involved with EVERY segment of this ordering, in this case joining a service that would necessitate us being involved with acts of violence.
Also, you said:
No one, at any time, has said these men are "in the wrong." All that has been stated is that the Bible not only does not recommend (us, Believers,) being involved in any type of service that would necessitate us being involved with acts of violence, it instructs us to do otherwise.
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headcovering
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Post by headcovering on Jun 6, 2012 20:21:44 GMT -5
I agree JORDYN
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Post by rachel4 on Jun 6, 2012 20:25:09 GMT -5
Brother Ben, Could you give me an example, please, of something that God orders that we should not involve ourselves in? I'm having trouble wrapping my head around that thought. If He orders it, than wouldn't He order it for good, thus making involvement in it acceptable? Really and truly, I am not trying to be argumentative (and I sincerely hope I'm not coming across that way). I have a very inquisitive mind and I want to understand God and His ways as far as possible for a small, lowly human! Blessings, Sister Rachel
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art
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Post by art on Jun 6, 2012 22:56:42 GMT -5
I believe armies and war are necessary evils because we live in a fallen world. I do not believe military service is appropriate for a Christian. You could be ordered to kill another Christian. You could be ordered to kill an unsaved person taking away any chance of them avoiding hell by becoming saved later. You could be ordered to take action against Israel. You will, at least at first, have to work daily in an atmosphere that is much more likely to corrupt you than it is to help you to grow in Christ.
I also don't belive in saying the pledge. "I pledge allegiance" means that "I swear loyalty" and God tells us in Matthew 5 and James 5 (among other places) that a Christian is not to swear an oath but to only answer yes and no. We don't even attend church on holidays like Memorial Day because in almost every Baptist church you're called on to say the pledge on these holidays and then much of the service is devoted to honoring soldiers instead of honoring God. Showing our appreciation to the military is great but it belongs in the town square, not in the church.
My understanding of nonresistance is consistent with Brother Ben's. We should protect our families but we should not be involved in violent offensive action against others. I too have struggled with all of these issues for a long time. In my younger days I came very close to signing papers with the military. I am glad now that I didn't but I still respect and appreciate those that are serving our country out of a true conviction to serve and protect others. I pray that our country will be noble and just in it's use of those serving in the military.
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headcovering
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Post by headcovering on Jun 7, 2012 10:24:20 GMT -5
I don't say the pledge. When ever we did it at field day or at AWANA club, i never did. Jordyn
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Post by daughteroftheking on Jun 8, 2012 18:23:23 GMT -5
I think we should be. Violence leads to hell.
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headcovering
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Post by headcovering on Jun 9, 2012 19:27:18 GMT -5
Also if you kill someone who is not a Christian you are basicaly sending them to hell because you never gave them a chance to learn. You could teach them! Jordyn
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Post by Brother Randy on Jun 9, 2012 19:50:37 GMT -5
pac·i·fism /ˈpæsəˌfɪzəm/ Show Spelled[pas-uh-fiz-uhm] Show IPA noun 1. opposition to war or violence of any kind. 2. refusal to engage in military activity because of one's principles or beliefs. 3. the principle or policy that all differences among nations should be adjusted without recourse to war
non·re·sis·tance (nnr-zstns) n. 1. The practice or principle of complete obedience to authority even if unjust or arbitrary. 2. The practice or principle of refusing to resort to force even in defense against violence.
I would like to suggest that what is mainly been talked about in this thread is pacifism, and not really nonresistance.
Nonresistance is based on the sermon on the mount in Matt. I do believe a lot of people get these two mixed up. I am not trying to make a big deal out of it, but I do believe it is important to understand the difference in the two. Like I shared before nonresistance should affect every bit of our life, not just if we join the military or fight in a war or not.
And again I am not anti military or government , I just don't think it has much of a place in the Christian's day to day life style.
In Christ Bro Randy
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Post by JohnMark on Jun 11, 2012 12:32:40 GMT -5
The pledge was written by a socialist "minister" who was so political minded/left wing his church fired him. Also, the original way to perform it was to extend the right arm forward at an angle, similar to the Fascist salute.
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headcovering
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Post by headcovering on Jun 11, 2012 15:25:37 GMT -5
What is the reason, do you think, that people say the pledge? Why was it even created? Jordyn
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Post by Brother Ben on Jun 13, 2012 9:11:07 GMT -5
We no longer say the pledge of allegiance. I was at a BIG Baptist church on (of all days,) the Fourth of July. It was a big hoopla event. they had flags, military uniforms, and the pledge. My family and I stood there, frozen in time, not pledging. I realized the impact of Jesus' words:
John 18 [36] Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
We are servants of another King. Our allegiance is to him. Furthermore:
2 Cor. [20] Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
We are ambassadors of another Kingdom. We live here, but as the old hymn says, this world is not our home.
I believe one of the reasons our modern Christendom has become so watered down is because we have become to "at home" in this world, and in America in specific.
I am not a patriot, though I, personally, love this country. It is beautiful, and has some wonderful people in it. But, it is not my home. There is a more fair land inhabited with the people of God. And, most of all, my Saviour is there. That is where I long to be.
Heb. 11 [14] For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. [15] And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. [16] But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
Did you catch those powerful words? Did you? Do you believe them?
"...they seek a country..."
Do we?
"...if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out..."
Have we come out?
"...desire a better country, that is, an heavenly..."
Is this our desire?
"God is not ashamed to be called their God..."
Wow!
That is NOT modern American Christianity.
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Post by Brother Randy on Jun 13, 2012 23:18:27 GMT -5
Bro Ben , a hardy Amen to that.
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Post by rachel on Jun 20, 2012 19:37:35 GMT -5
I've never understood why you have the pledge. You're doing what... pledging alliegence to a bit of cloth?
We don't have anything like that in Australia. Well, if we do, I've never heard of it or encountered it. Australia Day is basically a day to get together with friends and family, eat burnt sausages, and be lazy. The days involving the military tend to be ANZAC Day and Rememberence Day. Even then, there's no pledging of alliegence to anything. There's usually a bugler, a piper, a national anthem, a sermon, a hymn, a prayer, a poem (Rememberence Day), a parade (ANZAC Day), a minute of bugling and a minute of silence and a poem (Rememberence Day), and food (ANZAC Day).
I'm not sure what I think about the army and the police. I consider myself a pacifist. The army I don't know much about, but the police are pretty useless. I think they're the biggest law-breakers! At least our army isn't as corrupt as the American one. Seriously... yours bribes people into joining by promising to pay for their tertiary education? Not to offend anyone or anything, because it's your country and all, but that seems a little strange to me.
Maybe... The reason we need/have an army and a police force is because of all the evil in the world, which is here because of Satan. If it weren't for Adam and Eve letting all the sin into the world with the apple, there wouldn't be a need for the army/police. It's not part of God's original order of things, that's why we shouldn't join. Am I making sense or am I just speaking nonsense?
from Rachel.
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Post by emilyg on Jun 21, 2012 9:48:59 GMT -5
I've never understood why you have the pledge. You're doing what... pledging alliegence to a bit of cloth?. What the flag stands for...our country.
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