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Post by Brother Ben on Jun 21, 2012 16:29:02 GMT -5
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Post by rachel on Jun 22, 2012 17:34:20 GMT -5
Interesting link. I suppose all I knew of your Pledge of Alliegence was from what you see in movies... and you never see much beyond, "I pledge alliegence to the flag of the United States of America...", which explains why I thought you were pledging your alliegence to the bit of cloth.
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Post by Guadalupe on Jul 8, 2012 16:34:40 GMT -5
Re Matt. 5
[39] But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.This seems to be one of the verses that is the basis for that teaching. It is true, in a sense, if you study early Christian history, and the churches that followed more after the apostolic faith, you will find believers who did not respond to those "attacking" them for their faith with violence. Because of that, I believe the better stance would be "non-violence." Obviously, no husband and father is going to just stand there and let wicked me take or molest his wife and children. No, I may not "shoot" them, but neither will I fail to meet this demand: 1 Tim. 5
[8] But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.Does this verse mean only shelter and groceries? I think not. I am to protect my family from harm. So, I will stand in between my family and harm, while they retreat to safety. and It is not logical nor scriptural to say or think we should not have an army. The church is not an Old Testament theocracy. God is not our President. We are not securing a Christian America. Anyways, the Lord commands respect for the "powers that be." The following is specifically talking about government:
Rom. 13
[1] Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
[2] Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
[3] For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
[4] For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
[5] Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
[6] For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
[7] Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.The powers that be are ordained of God to be, as it says in verse 4, ". . . a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." So, what are we supposed to do? Rom. 12
[17] Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
[18] If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
[19] Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
[20] Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
[21] Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.Do you see that? We are NOT to avenge ourselves. Why? Chap. 13:4 told us, ". . . for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." If we are to rightly divide this scripture, we are to accept our governmental authorities, and leave war and vengence upon the evil UP TO THEM. Nowhere, is the N.T. believer told to act in violence against other, but on the contrary, to bless them. I know this is hard and strikes against our Americana, but God is not calling us to be Patriots, but humble disciples, followers of the Lamb, who:
Is. 53
[7] He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.Emilyg, you said: We are not in the O.T. We are under the New Covenant, which, as the writer of Hebrews says, is a "better way." The Revelation is a reference to wars among nations: Matt. 24
[7] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.This sums up our understanding as well. We also believe that there are some who are called to serve in the military. There are many ways to minister while in the military too. Men who are Godly can make a difference and be leaven. The Air Force forgot that and started persecuting Christians. Now they have a huge scandal of abuse going on. I once read that the number of morality problems were significantly lower in those military units that had chaplains. There's a need for Christian leaven in our military. |
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Post by Brother Ben on Jul 12, 2012 10:07:59 GMT -5
Sister Guadalupe, if we apply that same logic, i.e., "staying in to be leaven," then we could apply that to staying in the catholic Church, or the Masonic Lodge, etc., if we see an organization that clearly violates God's eternal principles, we are not to be "yoked" with it. Stand outside and witness, yes, be a "member," no. The scripture teaches us:
2 Cor. 6
[14] Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
[15] And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
[16] And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
[17] Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
[18] And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
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Post by Guadalupe on Jul 12, 2012 11:52:59 GMT -5
My husband and I believe that these verses proscribing being yoked to the unbelievers refer to two things:
1. marrying unbelievers and
2. taking up the practices of the unbelievers as a member of those unbelievers.
The reason we believe this is because the meaning of the word "yoke" in the Greek that refers to forming a covenant or sacred promise.
We do believe that we are to go among the unbelievers to evangelize and witness to the Faith of our Fathers. Jesus set this example when He ate with sinners as did His Apostles. We cannot give up that task of evangelization because of the Great Commandment Jesus Himself gave us in Matthew 28
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
When we go among the nations to teach them or go among local unbelievers, we are not swearing a sacred promise to "yoke" ourselves to the unbelievers. We are "teaching them to observe all things whatsoever" that Jesus commanded us. We remain separate from the unbelievers by our sacred covenant with Christ. We do not make covenant with unbelievers if we are teaching them.
Military chaplains have the same commandment to fulfill. It takes a strong sense of self as a Christian and a great deal of discipline to be able to evangelize and "teach all nations" without compromising our own beliefs but Jesus is with us if trust Him and remain close to Him.
There are a number of Baptist military chaplains who have written memoirs over the years. They recount the blessings of ministry to soldiers in the field and how many came to Christ. I don't have access to the titles at this moment because the books are at our son's house. I'm sure you can do an internet search to find these books.
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Post by Brother Ben on Jul 16, 2012 13:07:02 GMT -5
As a missionary to a foreign land, one has no obligation but to obey the laws of the land. However, to go in "among" the military you must become one of them. And what do you swear?
The Oath of Enlistment (for enlistees):
"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."
Now, we have had, and it cannot be dismissed that there are definite scriptural issues to be considered with the, "I,_____, do solemnly swear..." part of the oath. We are told:
Matt. 5
[34] But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
James 5
[12] But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.
Furthermore, one cannot honestly swear, " I will obey the orders of the President of the United States . . . " if he/she is a conscientious and obedient Christian.
Will you really obey the orders of a President with ties to Islam, no commitment to the scriptures, and Marxist doctrine in his hip pocket?
I didn't think so.
Will an honest and obedient Christian swear, "I will obey. . . the officers appointed over me," in like manner, if they are godless and command you to NOT pray in the name of Jesus? To NOT mention specific sins protected by the military, namely, sodomy?
I looked up the Strong's Greek on the "unequal yoked" wording and all they said was:
heterozygeō
1) to come under an unequal or different yoke, to be unequally yoked
a) to have fellowship with one who is not an equal: 2Cor 6:14, where the apostle is forbidding Christians to have intercourse with idolaters.
Just in case you might be inclined to think we have no military involvement, my wife's dad is a retired full-bird colonel from the Army, and my dad and brother served in the U.S.A.F.
This is not an easy stand, but we need to make sure we are not reading the Bible with Red, White, and Blue colored glasses. Patriotism does not equal godliness. We don't have to support military involvement to love our country or it's servicemen and women. We need to stand, as it were, outside the gate and share Christ with them.
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Post by Guadalupe on Jul 16, 2012 16:52:42 GMT -5
This is not an easy stand, but we need to make sure we are not reading the Bible with Red, White, and Blue colored glasses. Patriotism does not equal godliness. We don't have to support military involvement to love our country or it's servicemen and women. We need to stand, as it were, outside the gate and share Christ with them. I don't think anyone here is suggesting we wear colored glasses or necessarily be a patriot. We see it as obeying the commandment of Christ Himself to go out and teach His teachings to spread the Good News of salvation. To us that's the most important consideration in this kind of scenario. There are some who are called to mission in the military and some who are called to be more removed from such situations. The apostle Paul brought this up in discussing the gifts given to different individuals. Not everyone is meant to follow the same mission field with the same skill set. This is our understanding of the context of missioning. We see our God as a mighty God who knows the hearts of men and will assign each to the mission He needs accomplished. If that means going among the military my husband and I have no problem with Baptist chaplains doing so. We trust God to grace the effort as He sees fit. God is infinitely more wise than we are. We get our definition of "yoke" from Strong's Concordance in which it tells us the original word is ζυγός, οῦ, ὁ pronounced dzoo-gos' and for which the definition in the aforementioned verse and in , refers to properly, a yoke; a wooden bar placed over the neck of a pair of animals so they can pull together; (figuratively) what unites (joins) two people to move (work) together as one. To work together as one refers to two situations we have found in our studies: one is the marriage covenant and the other is the covenant between Jesus and the individual. Other verses we find this Greek word are Matthew 11:29,30 Acts 15:10 Galatians 5:1 1 Timothy 6:1 It's good we're digging deeply into this as it makes for good prayer and study.  Here is more from Strong's based on Thayer's Greek Lexicon metaphorically, used of any burden or bondage: as that of slavery, (), δουλείας, (Sophocles Aj. 944; δουλοσυνης, Demosthenes 322, 12); of troublesome laws imposed on one, especially of the Mosaic law, ; ; hence, the name is so transferred to the commands of Christ as to contrast them with the commands of the Pharisees which were a veritable 'yoke'; yet even Christ's commands must be submitted to, though easier to be kept: Matthew 11:29f (less aptly in Clement of Rome, 1 Cor. 16, 17 [ET] Christians are called οἱ ὑπό τόν ζυγόν τῆς χάριτος ἐλθόντες (cf. Harnack at the passage)). |
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Post by Brother Ben on Jul 17, 2012 8:56:28 GMT -5
I have an independent Baptist pastor friend who was told about the opportunities available to him in the Army chaplaincy. He enlisted, went through basic training, specialized training, and entered the Army as a Lieutenant. All was well at first, but eventually his "exclusive" message was singled out and addressed by superior officers. He eventually came under disciplinary actions for preaching that salvation through Jesus was the only way to forgiveness of sins and heaven. Why submit yourself to unreasonable and ungodly men, when you can go to a town where there is a military base and start a mission to the military personell? I know a missionary doing that VERY thing in Germany. He's been there a long time and has a very affective ministry. Here's a link. Jesus said, "swear not," period. To do otherwise is sin. Should ministers to military personell sin that grace may abound? Of course not. There is no "calling," that has disobedience to the clear commands of Christ as a part of it. |
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Post by Guadalupe on Jul 18, 2012 1:08:51 GMT -5
Why submit yourself to unreasonable and ungodly men, when you can go to a town where there is a military base and start a mission to the military personell? Because there are military personnel in "active zones" (also known as battle zones) where non-military personnel have been prohibited access. Many conversions have come from the trenches where the chaplains ministered with bullets flying past them according to their biographies. These men went on to become ministers themselves in quite a few cases and thus carrying on the work of Jesus Christ. In the Strong's Concordance, Greek for sin is: hamartía ("sin, forfeiture because missing the mark") is the brand of sin that emphasizes its self-originated (self-empowered) nature – i.e. it is not originated or empowered by God (i.e. not of faith, His inworked persuasion, cf. ) Jesus who took on the sins of the world asks us to sacrifice ourselves to His service in bringing His Word to others. He took on our sins for us. He was empowered by God to do this for others 2 Cor. 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. Empowerment from God, the grace of God protected Jesus from the mortal consequences of the sin He had to take on from us and so sanctified His act of sacrifice. We are called to work as one (be yoked to) with Jesus. Jesus regularly interacted with unreasonable and unGodly men to carry the message of Salvation as did His apostles and disciples after the Resurrection. We are also told by Paul that we're supposed to be like Jesus as a part of our covenant with Him. If God calls us to serve and we answer then God will empower us to do what is necessary to win souls for Him; all we have to do is to always obey the call He gives us. We also have to consider Ephesians 6: 5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; 6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; 7 With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: 8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. Slaves had to swear loyalty oaths to their masters in the Roman Empire and my husband and I have discerned that this is a clarification and expanded explanation with caveat of the proscription against the swearing of oaths. This passage makes a clear distinction between the intentions of the heart, the requirements one's job in the world, and how it impacts one's service and ministry for Jesus. This particular theme has proved very interesting for studying the original context as well as the Greek. |
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