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Post by rachel4 on May 29, 2012 10:54:25 GMT -5
Brothers and Sisters, My husband and I have been talking a good deal lately about what our Mennonite friends term "nonresistance". I would be interested to know what your thoughts are, and more importantly the Biblical support for them, on this topic.
Thank you, Sister Rachel
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Post by Brother Ben on May 30, 2012 9:34:06 GMT -5
Matt. 5 [39] But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
This seems to be one of the verses that is the basis for that teaching. It is true, in a sense, if you study early Christian history, and the churches that followed more after the apostolic faith, you will find believers who did not respond to those "attacking" them for their faith with violence.
Because of that, I believe the better stance would be "non-violence." Obviously, no husband and father is going to just stand there and let wicked me take or molest his wife and children. No, I may not "shoot" them, but neither will I fail to meet this demand:
1 Tim. 5 [8] But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
Does this verse mean only shelter and groceries? I think not. I am to protect my family from harm. So, I will stand in between my family and harm, while they retreat to safety.
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Post by emilyg on May 30, 2012 12:51:03 GMT -5
Brothers and Sisters, My husband and I have been talking a good deal lately about what our Mennonite friends term "nonresistance". I would be interested to know what your thoughts are, and more importantly the Biblical support for them, on this topic. Thank you, Sister Rachel I'd really like to learn more about this as well. Every Memorial Day, 4th of July, etc. Someone on my fb brings up that we shouldn't pledge to the flag, have an army, fight in wars, etc.
The only verse I can think of is when the disciples bring two swords with them, Jesus doesn't rebuke them for having swords nor does He command more (2 swords for 13 people aren't very many swords), when they went to pray before Jesus was captured. This is Luke 22, not sure if it's in the other Gospels.
Then of course all the wars in the Old Testament, and the war at the end times in Revelation.
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Post by rachel4 on May 30, 2012 15:39:45 GMT -5
Yes, I am with you Emily. Also, Brother Ben, thank you for your input. I agree with your example, however, as Emily stated, how then does that translate into having a national army, a police force, those types of things?
Our Mennonite friends believe that having a national army is wrong. I am not sure I can agree with that. It seems to me that the verse in Matthew that Brother Ben quotes deals more with overlooking an offense, an insult, in a personal relationship. Anyone else have thoughts?
Thank you! Sister Rachel
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Post by Brother Ben on May 31, 2012 10:50:02 GMT -5
It is not logical nor scriptural to say or think we should not have an army. The church is not an Old Testament theocracy. God is not our President. We are not securing a Christian America. Anyways, the Lord commands respect for the "powers that be."
The following is specifically talking about government:
Rom. 13 [1] Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. [2] Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. [3] For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: [4] For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. [5] Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. [6] For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. [7] Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
The powers that be are ordained of God to be, as it says in verse 4, ". . . a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."
So, what are we supposed to do?
Rom. 12 [17] Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. [18] If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. [19] Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. [20] Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. [21] Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
Do you see that? We are NOT to avenge ourselves. Why? Chap. 13:4 told us, ". . . for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."
If we are to rightly divide this scripture, we are to accept our governmental authorities, and leave war and vengence upon the evil UP TO THEM.
Nowhere, is the N.T. believer told to act in violence against other, but on the contrary, to bless them.
I know this is hard and strikes against our Americana, but God is not calling us to be Patriots, but humble disciples, followers of the Lamb, who:
Is. 53 [7] He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Emilyg, you said:
We are not in the O.T. We are under the New Covenant, which, as the writer of Hebrews says, is a "better way."
The Revelation is a reference to wars among nations:
Matt. 24 [7] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
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Post by emilyg on May 31, 2012 12:19:18 GMT -5
Emilyg, you said: We are not in the O.T. We are under the New Covenant, which, as the writer of Hebrews says, is a "better way." The Revelation is a reference to wars among nations: Matt. 24 [7] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. I know, I just thought if war is so horrible to God, why would He have commanded it? I think war is horrible, but sometimes necessary...maybe?
Isn't there something in Revelation about Jesus riding on a horse and the saints being his army? I could be wrong, very possible!!
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headcovering
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Post by headcovering on May 31, 2012 15:43:11 GMT -5
This makes since to me now momma. Thanks for posting! Jordy
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Post by Brother Ben on Jun 1, 2012 13:09:36 GMT -5
I know, I just thought if war is so horrible to God, why would He have commanded it? I think war is horrible, but sometimes necessary...maybe?
Isn't there something in Revelation about Jesus riding on a horse and the saints being his army? I could be wrong, very possible!! 2 Thess. 2 [8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Rev. 19 [14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. [15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
[21] And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.Those in white raiment on the horse follow Jesus and he will destroy the armies of the world with the sword that proceeds from his mouth and with the brightness of his coming. And, of significant note, notice who has gathered to fight against Christ: Rev. 19 [19] And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.The kings of the earth AND THEIR ARMIES. Where will America be? What armies? Maybe the U.S., too?
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Post by rachel4 on Jun 1, 2012 21:04:38 GMT -5
So, should a Christian join the armed forces?
Sister Rachel
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headcovering
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Post by headcovering on Jun 3, 2012 6:11:40 GMT -5
I am not sure. I disagree strongly with women joining the armed forces, and daddy does too. We were talking about it a couple months ago. But i do not know about men. I don't think men or women should, but i don't know if there is any verses to back that up. Jordyn
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Post by emilyg on Jun 3, 2012 9:54:35 GMT -5
I am not sure. I disagree strongly with women joining the armed forces, and daddy does too. We were talking about it a couple months ago. But i do not know about men. I don't think men or women should, but i don't know if there is any verses to back that up. Jordyn I agree with women shouldn't join the military, definitely. I'm not sure about Christian men. I guess they can...?
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Post by Brother Randy on Jun 3, 2012 23:00:16 GMT -5
Short answer from what I see in the word is no. Being a pacifist( one against war ) is not the same as being nonresistance. Nonresistance is so much more it is a way in which we live our daily life in accordance with the word. If some one wrongs me , sells , cheat , or even takes me to court I do not return in like manner. It is better for me to suffer for Christ's sake. Even if they take my life I don't respond in " selfdefense "where I might take their life.
Another point is how can I as a believer willing take anothers life when that person might be a believer too. Even if they are not me as a believer is better to give up my life for a non believe , they may come to the Lord later on. When you think of like the Civil war there had to be belivers on both sides killing each other, how can we do that? We are of a different kingdom and therefore don't fight. John 18:36
Bro Ben shared a good many verses on this.
Alot of baptist churches are very pro military, which I disagree with , it is not God and country, we are not a christian nation fighting for God.
I am not against our country having a military , for God gives them and police to punish the evil doers, but that does not mean as believers we can or should take part in that.
In Christ Bro Randy
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headcovering
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Post by headcovering on Jun 4, 2012 8:36:42 GMT -5
I personally wouldn't join the armed forces because this is not a Christian country. It was, then it started to become less and less.
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Post by Brother Ben on Jun 4, 2012 16:05:12 GMT -5
A lot of the material about the "founding father's" and our "Christian foundation," needs to be examined carefully. Many of our founding father's were part of the Masonic Lodge, (Google it.) Also, many of them held to Calvinistic doctrine that ultimately came from the Roman Catholic Church. They justified war in the name of God. Since the elect would go to heaven anyways, one could not kill the wrong person.
As Randy clearly stated, how can one Christian (soldier) kill another Christian (soldier) and it be o.k. with God and profitable for the Kingdom of God?
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headcovering
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Post by headcovering on Jun 4, 2012 16:11:18 GMT -5
one thing i forgot to say is that one of the ten commanments it ' Thou shalt not murder.' so how can you not murder in war?
jordyn
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